What is a good LUFS level for production music?

[dblock]

I've read that around -23 LUFS is recommended but I think that is for broadcasters but I found to be and way too low compared to other production music. On the other hand, I've also been told by one library that some clients complain my masters are actually too loud.
Would like to get some opinions from library composers where they set their LUFS levels to be competitive without being too loud.
Tia

[vitocorleone123]

I don't have an exact answer as a hobbyist, but here's a plugin that might help?

https://www.masteringthemix.com/products/levels

Waves Loudness Meter (on sale right now) also monitors LUFS... but you're looking for a number, not a plugin, per se. I think the target LUFS has to do with both the type of music and the final medium (online, CD, etc.), so I don't know that there's a single answer.

[dblock]

I don't have an exact answer as a hobbyist, but here's a plugin that might help?

https://www.masteringthemix.com/products/levels

Waves Loudness Meter (on sale right now) also monitors LUFS... but you're looking for a number, not a plugin, per se. I think the target LUFS has to do with both the type of music and the final medium (online, CD, etc.), so I don't know that there's a single answer.

Thanks for responding vitocorleone123.
It's a target LUFS I'm looking to get a very general consensus of what other composers shoot for. But you are correct, the type of music is a factor but I can adjust to that once I get a better benchmark in general to start.

[neverwhere2410]

I forget which episodes specifically cover it, but the subject of LUFS and loudness comes up regularly on this podcast:

http://themasteringshow.com/

It's a mastering oriented podcast, but it's well worth listening through from the beginning for the wealth of information that gets discussed.

[dblock]

I forget which episodes specifically cover it, but the subject of LUFS and loudness comes up regularly on this podcast:

http://themasteringshow.com/

It's a mastering oriented podcast, but it's well worth listening through from the beginning for the wealth of information that gets discussed.

Thanks for the link neverwhere2410. I'll definitely check it out.

[Compyfox]

I've read that around -23 LUFS is recommended but I think that is for broadcasters but I found to be and way too low compared to other production music.

There is currently a huge shift going on in the industry regarding the "LUFS" target values.
The main questions I'd ask first are:

What is the material for? (target audience)
What release format?

On the other hand, I've also been told by one library that some clients complain my masters are actually too loud.

Please define "Library", and which company you're talking about.

Would like to get some opinions from library composers where they set their LUFS levels to be competitive without being too loud.
Tia

As mentioned, there is currently a shift happening in the "Loudness War" realm, and "loudness normalization on playback" is gathering more and more attention.

Currently recommended is an upper limit of -16LUFS ILk (avg over time) for the loudest track of your album. But this value shifts depending on the streaming provider (I assume to be "the library", Spotify recently dropped to -14LUFS, Youtube is around -13LUFS, Mastered for iTunes aims to be -16LUFS). This in turn would result in a PLR (Peak to Loudness) value of 15. Meaning it's still super "dynamic" for most mediums (CD, Blu-Ray, Streaming, Broadcast, Vinyl, Tape, etc).

Though during broadcasting (Radio/TV - especially in Europe), the signal is still being pulled down to -23LUFS/LKFS. However, compared to massive sausage fests at -4dB RMS, your production is more than healthy and retained it's transients (PLR of 15 versus PLR of 4).


That is being the topic in a nutshell (really, really only scratching the surface).
I'm sure you got more questions. I try to answer as good as I can ASAP.

[dblock]

I've read that around -23 LUFS is recommended but I think that is for broadcasters but I found to be and way too low compared to other production music.

There is currently a huge shift going on in the industry regarding the "LUFS" target values.
The main questions I'd ask first are:

What is the material for? (target audience)
What release format?

On the other hand, I've also been told by one library that some clients complain my masters are actually too loud.

Please define "Library", and which company you're talking about.

Would like to get some opinions from library composers where they set their LUFS levels to be competitive without being too loud.
Tia

As mentioned, there is currently a shift happening in the "Loudness War" realm, and "loudness normalization on playback" is gathering more and more attention.

Currently recommended is an upper limit of -16LUFS ILk (avg over time) for the loudest track of your album. But this value shifts depending on the streaming provider (I assume to be "the library", Spotify recently dropped to -14LUFS, Youtube is around -13LUFS, Mastered for iTunes aims to be -16LUFS). This in turn would result in a PLR (Peak to Loudness) value of 15. Meaning it's still super "dynamic" for most mediums (CD, Blu-Ray, Streaming, Broadcast, Vinyl, Tape, etc).

Though during broadcasting (Radio/TV - especially in Europe), the signal is still being pulled down to -23LUFS/LKFS. However, compared to massive sausage fests at -4dB RMS, your production is more than healthy and retained it's transients (PLR of 15 versus PLR of 4).


That is being the topic in a nutshell (really, really only scratching the surface).
I'm sure you got more questions. I try to answer as good as I can ASAP.

Hi Compyfox.We've spoken on a number of odds and ends.
The vast majority of my tracks are used in TV placements so I'm not getting the complaints thee since as you mentioned they are being pulled down to -23 LUFS.
The one complaint I got on my masters being too loud was only from one RF library (I'm sure you are familiar with AS) but that really isn't a huge concern for me because RF libraries aren't my main source of income by any stretch. I only mentioned it because no library would be in a position to say that if my masters are within reasonable but competitive levels.
-4rms is quite loud. I used to go there all the time but I know it's not necessary for TV use. Maybe -15 to -11 Lufs could be more of a sweet spot for TV? I really don't use RMS for perceived loudness anymore and translating RMS to it's quasi LUFS equivalent is tricky at best for me which makes it a bit confusing.

[Compyfox]

I'm not familiar with AS - but I take it it's a "library for trailer/commercial music" for various broadcast stations?


Regarding levels to shoot for - let's make it simple:
If you want to release it to the masses, try to aim for -16LUFS ILk (Integrated Loudness) - either per track (longer than 30s) or whole albums. -14LUFS is currently a good starting point for a lot(!) of broadcast stations like Spotify, iTunes, Youtube... Not sure on what Tidal is currently at (was it -14LUFS? Don't have numbers at hand currently).

This way, broadcast stations that run at -23LUFS (Europe) or -24LUKS (USA) can then pull down your productions as needed, while your material still retains it's transients (PLR of 15 at -16LUFS due to dBTP max being -1dBFS and ILk value being -16LUFS).


So I'd day... start with -14LUFS as absolute max(!), then go gradually down the longer you work in this realm.



The idea of "loudness normalization" (LUFS target) is to finally drop that "competitive loud" thinking. However, it will still take years until people start to drop their material down to reasonable loudness values again, or accept that a mixdown from a -18dBFS = 0VU reference level set up project can have a loudness of -16LUFS SLk avg. Not to mention that "mastering" doesn't have to mean "make sh*t loud and 'competitive'!" (which is nonsense IMO - because what makes you competitive is how "well" your production sounds, and if people come back for more)

[dblock]

I'm not familiar with AS - but I take it it's a "library for trailer/commercial music" for various broadcast stations?


Regarding levels to shoot for - let's make it simple:
If you want to release it to the masses, try to aim for -16LUFS ILk (Integrated Loudness) - either per track (longer than 30s) or whole albums. -14LUFS is currently a good starting point for a lot(!) of broadcast stations like Spotify, iTunes, Youtube... Not sure on what Tidal is currently at (was it -14LUFS? Don't have numbers at hand currently).

This way, broadcast stations that run at -23LUFS (Europe) or -24LUKS (USA) can then pull down your productions as needed, while your material still retains it's transients (PLR of 15 at -16LUFS due to dBTP max being -1dBFS and ILk value being -16LUFS).


So I'd day... start with -14LUFS as absolute max(!), then go gradually down the longer you work in this realm.



The idea of "loudness normalization" (LUFS target) is to finally drop that "competitive loud" thinking. However, it will still take years until people start to drop their material down to reasonable loudness values again, or accept that a mixdown from a -18dBFS = 0VU reference level set up project can have a loudness of -16LUFS SLk avg. Not to mention that "mastering" doesn't have to mean "make sh*t loud and 'competitive'!" (which is nonsense IMO - because what makes you competitive is how "well" your production sounds, and if people come back for more)

I always appreciate your posts and the detail you put in them.
"... start with -14LUFS as absolute max(!), then go gradually down the longer you work in this realm." This is exactly what I was looking for Compyfox. A better ballpark LUFS.
I was talking about Audiosparx but TV is not their main thing so what may be too loud for some of their clients seems to be fine for the TV placements I get but again, that's because TV pulls it down. I just want to make sure that no library tells me my masters are too loud or too quiet and hopefully -14 LUFS for starters will help with that.I'm going to pull out some old mixes and experiment late today and see how they hold up against similar music for TV .But again, that's because TV pulls it down.
Thanks alot Compyfox!

[Compyfox]

You're welcome.


As you probably know, there are plenty of metering tools around these days. Just use any ITU-R BS.1770-x type one, then see if your production hovers around -14LUFS (or -16LUFS) on average (mezzoforte passages) with SLk (short term loudness) measurement. Maximum loudness (forte fortissimo passages) should ideally not exceed -10LUFS (with -14LUFS) or -12LUFS (with -16LUFS) SLk - but as usual, this is dependent on how well you mixed, etc.

Alternatively, hit my KVR Marks... I wrote a post about Manual and Automated Loudness Normalization that you can do with pretty much ANY metering tool that's out there.

Or you're using Wavelab's Batch Process, or Nugen Audio's Master Check.

[dblock]

You're welcome.


As you probably know, there are plenty of metering tools around these days. Just use any ITU-R BS.1770-x type one, then see if your production hovers around -14LUFS (or -16LUFS) on average (mezzoforte passages) with SLk (short term loudness) measurement. Maximum loudness (forte fortissimo passages) should ideally not exceed -10LUFS (with -14LUFS) or -12LUFS (with -16LUFS) SLk - but as usual, this is dependent on how well you mixed, etc.

Alternatively, hit my KVR Marks... I wrote a post about Manual and Automated Loudness Normalization that you can do with pretty much ANY metering tool that's out there.

Or you're using Wavelab's Batch Process, or Nugen Audio's Master Check.

I've got a bunch of meters but my new favorite is the LUFS Meter by Klangfreund which allows you to actually set the LUFS level you want.
In checking out your KVR marks,I see you've got some very helpful and informative posts to checkout.

[Compyfox]

There is a KVR Mark in there called "LUFS Meter Plugin" - where there are many tools listed that might be of your interest.

If you're looking for an alternative and/or something with a variable reference level, then the Developer Challenge 2016 entry "Youlean Loudness Meter" might be of value. However it's a bit buggy - especially in Wavelab (not working there!).

EBU Loudness has presets with targets at -20LUFS, -16LUFS, -14LUFS and -12LUFS plus color coding. They're called "K-System v2", based upon an old concept of mine. The demo has no limitations other than resetting the values on stop/rewind of the project.


I have to admit, I never really looked super close at the Klangfreund meter. But if you can set the reference level to any value you like (example -16LUFS = 0LU), then you should be good to go. Then check out my KVR Mark called "Loudness Normalisation (manually) according to ..."

[dblock]

There is a KVR Mark in there called "LUFS Meter Plugin" - where there are many tools listed that might be of your interest.

If you're looking for an alternative and/or something with a variable reference level, then the Developer Challenge 2016 entry "Youlean Loudness Meter" might be of value. However it's a bit buggy - especially in Wavelab (not working there!).

EBU Loudness has presets with targets at -20LUFS, -16LUFS, -14LUFS and -12LUFS plus color coding. They're called "K-System v2", based upon an old concept of mine. The demo has no limitations other than resetting the values on stop/rewind of the project.


I have to admit, I never really looked super close at the Klangfreund meter. But if you can set the reference level to any value you like (example -16LUFS = 0LU), then you should be good to go. Then check out my KVR Mark called "Loudness Normalisation (manually) according to ..."

Yeah,you can set the you can set the LUFS Meter from to -1 to -60.
https://www.klangfreund.com/lufsmeter/

[Hermetech Mastering]

LUFS for recoding and mixing is completely inconsequential. As long as you are working in 24 bit and not clipping anything, you are good to go. How does it sound?

[The_G]

What kind of music are you making, and are you planning to sell primarily via bandcamp or elsewhere?

I ask because different styles of music have different loudness standards, while scenes that are centered on bandcamp and soundcloud may still have a higher loudness standard than those that do not (since bandcamp and soundcloud do not normalize LUFS). In techno, for example, a lot of releases are in the -8 to -10 LUFS range. But in other genres, that will be way too loud.