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NKirn93
KVRist
 
33 posts since 2 Sep, 2015

Postby NKirn93; Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:37 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

lloydcole wrote:...Also, as I mentioned in an earlier reply, I have in my test project a Drum Machine track, playing midi notes from the arranger, AND a simple midi track playing hi hat from a launcher clip, routed to the Drum Machine. I cannot mute the midi coming from the drum machine with the MUTE button, but I CAN mute the midi from the midi track using the MUTE button.


Which is precisely how it should work, you just don't understand signal flow. The mute button is always at the end of the signal chain and ONLY works there. See below.

Drum Machine track:
MIDI from clip -> Drum Machine -> Mute Button
In this case the mute button can only mute what comes out of the Drum Machine.

Expand to include pads and you have this:
MIDI from clip -> Drum Machine Pad -> Pad Mute Button -> Mute Button
Again, the mute button only works at the end of the device chain.

The reason you Hihat track works is because of this:
MIDI from Hihat track clip -> Hihat track Mute Button ->(routed to Drum Machine track)-> Drum Machine -> Mute Button
Here you're pressing the Mute button that sits between the MIDI and the Drum Machine. That's why it works, you're cutting signal before it gets to its destination.

Here's one way to be able to mute MIDI and retain Drum Machine pad names for editing:

Make individual tracks for all the pads, group them and route their MIDI to the group track. Now click on a Drum Machine pad's plus sign and once the popup browser shows click OK. You should be able to rename that cell and it will show up in the MIDI editor.
Then you create individual clips and compose MIDI in there. If you want to edit all of them at the same time take advantage of the layered editor. You can also colour code your parts this way :)
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:01 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

Thanks, NKirn93, I do actually understand the signal flow, now, and even better after your post.

However,
NKirn93 wrote:The mute button is always at the end of the signal chain and ONLY works there. See below.

Drum Machine track:
MIDI from clip -> Drum Machine -> Mute Button
In this case the mute button can only mute what comes out of the Drum Machine.


Audio isn't the only thing coming out of Drum Machine. It is outputting midi, too.

I think I now know why this oversight (The Drum Machine and HW Instrument issue I originally brought up) has happened. I don't think that Bitwig designers have taken into account those of us who use our DAW in parallel with our hardware. I think the designers think that all users will route ALL audio through Bitwig. Well, that isn't the case, and I couldn't list all the reasons that that is a bad idea, for many of us.
Drum Machine and HW Instrument are capable, in situations where hardware is not run through BitWig, of being midi only devices, and if that option could be added to their output options, then this philosophical stand off would be over and I imagine most everyone would be happy.
Last edited by lloydcole on Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:03 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

Bitwig have responded via email.

Hello LLOYD COLE,

I have looked at the KVR thread, and as other contributors have pointed out already, the signal flow of note data and audio signals is quite flexible, and therefore requires straight "laws" to remain logical in all the possible scenarios.
In some routing scenarios, like yours, it also implies that pressing "Mute" on a mixer channel does not necessarily mean "no sound", as you would expect from a hardware mixer, which can't route any note data.

"HW Instrument" is designed to put out an Audio signal – thus that is is the signal that's being muted when you press that track's/drum pad's Mute button.

The Mute button will mute the note output only if no Audio-outputting devices (such as HW Instrument) are on that track.

The two possibilities you have in your scenario:
1) instead of clicking the Mute button in the Mixer, click on the little yellow dot next to the "HW Instrument" device ("device chain" view toggle must be enabled) .. to bypass the device and prevent it from sending notes to your hardware.
2) make a Group of Instrument tracks, that only contain Note clips, and no Audio devices. Then put Drum Machine on the Group Master track, and select this Drum Machine as an Output on all of those Instrument tracks within the Group.
Then, the Mute buttons of those Instrument tracks will do what you expect: mute their note outputs, as the "HW Instrument" devices are not located on these tracks themselves, but in the Drum Machine pads.

My reply -

...I understand the logic but I was under the impression that Bitwig 2 was hoping to expand its midi capabilities. I have corresponded with Thavius Beck and he certainly thinks that this situation is an oversite which should have been fixed in beta testing. I know that the HW instrument, and Drum Machine have audio outs, and that is what the mute button generally mutes, but that is not universal in BitWig 2. You now have midi tracks where the mute button mutes the midi output. Surely DM and HW Instrument are also optionally just midi… routing the audio of all all the hardware in my system back through Bitwig is simply impractical, and in most cases actually not preferable. I, and many others using Bitwig, have hardware which sounds great and I prefer to use my DAW in parallel with this hardware, committing to recording audio files only when experimentation is over.
Surely it should be a fairly simple fix which would please all concerned to make containers and HW instrument a little more intelligent and have ‘midi only’ added to the output options, so that the Mute button would work. This would make the BitWig 2 experience far simpler. All the other options, right now, feel like workarounds.

Best,

Lloyd Cole
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NKirn93
KVRist
 
33 posts since 2 Sep, 2015

Postby NKirn93; Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:07 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

lloydcole wrote:...Audio isn't the only thing coming out of Drum Machine. It is outputting midi, too...

Whoops, forgot to mention something, my bad. The Mute Button is muting the output of the track. So if your track is set up to output audio, then it'll mute audio. If it's set to output MIDI, it'll mute MIDI.

lloydcole wrote:...I think the designers think that all users will route ALL audio through Bitwig...

I think the designers thought the user would use the device for it's intended purpose. HW Instrument in question, that means routing MIDI to hardware and receiving audio output from the hardware back into the same track.

You're using it for something it wasn't designed to do. Nothing wrong with that, just bring some awareness to it. I'm constantly trying to push Bitwig myself but when it crashes of a feature that I've cobbled together doesn't work, that's on me.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:40 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

I can't believe I'm the only person wanting to mostly route my hardware through my mixer, rather than into Bitwig and then out again into my mixer. Hopefully I'll hear more from Bitwig soon. I thought the whole idea behind Bitwig was that it could be customised to ones preferred ways of working.
Last edited by lloydcole on Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12147 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:35 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

lloydcole wrote:I can't believe I'm the only person wanting to mostly route my hardware through my mixer, rather than into Bitwig and then out into my mixer. Hopefully I'll hear more from Bitwig soon. I thought the whole idea behind Bitwig was that it could be customised to ones preferred ways of working.


It is... that does not mean every wrinkle has been worked out. In the meanwhile, it is easy to get what one wants done.
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NKirn93
KVRist
 
33 posts since 2 Sep, 2015

Postby NKirn93; Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:54 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

lloydcole wrote:I thought the whole idea behind Bitwig was that it could be customised to ones preferred ways of working.

Which it can. Every solution isn't created equal.

Can you give me a link to the video where Thavius built this Drum Machine?
craigtumps
KVRist
 
143 posts since 16 Jul, 2014

Postby craigtumps; Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:20 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

Hi guys, how are you controlling your external hardware through the drum machine? How do you send the trigger notes to the hardware?

I have a Korg Beats and the trigger notes are spread out all over the place for some reason. It would be nice to have them setup in one place on the BW drum machine and control it from there.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:59 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

NKirn93 wrote:
lloydcole wrote:I thought the whole idea behind Bitwig was that it could be customised to ones preferred ways of working.

Which it can. Every solution isn't created equal.

Can you give me a link to the video where Thavius built this Drum Machine?


I can't send you a link because the Ask Video series requires subscription, I'm afraid. It was one of the last videos in the 301 series. To be clear, he routes the audio back through Bitwig as Drum Machine expects.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:04 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

craigtumps wrote:Hi guys, how are you controlling your external hardware through the drum machine? How do you send the trigger notes to the hardware?

I have a Korg Beats and the trigger notes are spread out all over the place for some reason. It would be nice to have them setup in one place on the BW drum machine and control it from there.


Drum Machine is great for that. So long as you are OK to route the audio back through BW ;) Just create a Drum Machine, double click on the note tile that plays Kick Drum, put a HW Instrument there, set the midi channel, add midi CC device before the HW instrument, if you want to have midi control over parameters, or want to automate these. Name the note tile. Repeat these steps for each sound. It doesn't matter that they are all over the place, when you choose the Grid view, rather than the keyboard view, you only see the notes you've added devices to and named.
craigtumps
KVRist
 
143 posts since 16 Jul, 2014

Postby craigtumps; Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:33 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

I see! I get it now. I will give it a try later.

The only thing that might still be a bit messy is that on my Push controller in Drum mode the buttons will still be all over the place. But this is still neater with the grid view all labelled up, thanks. :tu:
Tearing Riots
KVRian
 
654 posts since 18 Oct, 2014

Postby Tearing Riots; Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:52 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

craigtumps wrote:I have a Korg Beats and the trigger notes are spread out all over the place for some reason. It would be nice to have them setup in one place on the BW drum machine and control it from there.


With note pitchshifters, put the hw instrument device into a cell, add one in front and adjust until you hit the desired note.
craigtumps
KVRist
 
143 posts since 16 Jul, 2014

Postby craigtumps; Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:15 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

Tearing Riots wrote:
craigtumps wrote:I have a Korg Beats and the trigger notes are spread out all over the place for some reason. It would be nice to have them setup in one place on the BW drum machine and control it from there.


With note pitchshifters, put the hw instrument device into a cell, add one in front and adjust until you hit the desired note.


Thats even better! Thanks, its easy once you know how. :party:
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