Roland Boutique SE-02 ... (actual analog. roland brand, studio electronics build)

[Stupid American Pig]

I too had a moog gap in my synth collection. I planned on getting a minimoog but saw the se02 and decided to go for it. Should be here mid July. I'm still waiting for my digitakt though so who knows.

[zerocrossing]

Dunno if it is merely a sales bullet point that the device is analog? Or maybe it would be impossible to sound indistinguishably similar to the SE-02 in a polyphonic DSP digital synth?

Hard to say. I'm a big fan of the Roland ACB software. Sounds great to me. How accurate are they? Oddly, no one seems to care enough to post a decent a/b between them and the original hardware.

Different markets I think. It's not really had much impact on prices of used originals. The people that still want that hardware aren't all that interested in the little finger cramp boxes that Roland's putting out.

One of my friends has the Juno-60 clone, can't remember it's number, I have a Juno-60, maybe we'll compare them one day, probably not, he doesn't care, and neither do I.

Had they may it 12 voices and in a usable size then there might be more interest.

Well, the System 1, 1m and 8 aren't little finger cramp boxes. System 8 is only 8 voices, which is a bit lame, I agree.

[ghettosynth]

Dunno if it is merely a sales bullet point that the device is analog? Or maybe it would be impossible to sound indistinguishably similar to the SE-02 in a polyphonic DSP digital synth?

Hard to say. I'm a big fan of the Roland ACB software. Sounds great to me. How accurate are they? Oddly, no one seems to care enough to post a decent a/b between them and the original hardware.

Different markets I think. It's not really had much impact on prices of used originals. The people that still want that hardware aren't all that interested in the little finger cramp boxes that Roland's putting out.

One of my friends has the Juno-60 clone, can't remember it's number, I have a Juno-60, maybe we'll compare them one day, probably not, he doesn't care, and neither do I.

Had they may it 12 voices and in a usable size then there might be more interest.

Well, the System 1, 1m and 8 aren't little finger cramp boxes. System 8 is only 8 voices, which is a bit lame, I agree.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was only talking about the boutique series.

[zerocrossing]

Thanks zerocrossing

When wondering if it would be possible to sound the same in an at-least-8-voice polyphonic dsp synth I assumed that the trick would require heftier horsepower than that first trio of four-voice VA boutique models. Not just double the processing power to get 8 voices, but possibly lots more than double the horsepower to "sound the same" as SA-02.

Maybe it would be rather expensive even implemented in DSP? Though maybe not as expensive as building eight analog SE-02 into one poly keyboard.

Of course it's possible. Aim a confetti cannon full of cash at any problem and you can usually get it to go away. Some may say your synth already exists in the John Bowen Solaris. (I'm one of them) It's not modeled on the SE-02 (of course) but it does have Moog 24 db ladder emulation. (As well as others) It does lots of audio rate modulation stuff, which is notoriously hard to get right in software unless you throw a lot of CPU at it.

Thanks zerocrossing.

If I was gonna spend a bunch on a poly synth, Solaris would be on the short list. Haven't seriously considered it. Many sounds in Solaris demo videos-- I think I could make similar sounds by layering various boxes already at the house. But the Solaris do look nice.

I get the impression some folk wish there would be a Memorymoog reissue. That might be most feasible as a VA (with lots of DSP chips inside) rather than anything remotely similar to the original circuitry. Spaghetti jungle!

But if made as a VA, even if it nailed the Memorymoog sound and got rid of all the original bugs-- Perhaps it wouldn't sell because it wouldn't be analog.

Eight of the Behringer Minimoog clones in a 5 octave keyboard or eight of the SE-02 in a 5 octave keyboard would probably be "lots better" than a Memorymoog. Sure Memorymoog was only 6 voice, but it ought to have been at least 8 voice.

Memorymoog to my taste had more flexible envelopes than Minimoog. I didn't study the SE-02 or Behringer about the envelopes. If they closely resemble Minimoog envelopes, I didn't ever have proper appreciation of Minimoog envelopes. It was a good synth but I more-favored at least four-stage conventional adsr controls. But even without a re-design closer to a Memorymoog voice, 8 SE-02 in a keyboard would probably be a heck of an axe, either in analog or "sounds exactly the same" DSP.

But while on the topic of flying pigs, something that would even pry money out of my miserly fingers would be an accurate Chroma Polaris reissue. Analog or DSP, don't matter to me if it happened to be "near identical" except for fixing a few minor warts. And at least 8 voice. Eliminate the membrane switches. Use a modern CPU not likely to fail in mysterious ways. Remove the CA3080 from the master audio output circuitry. It had a rather ordinary signal flow architecture and used chips seen in other synths, but for whatever reason that thang seemed to have a much wider sound palette than other poly synths of the era. And such a nice velocity-sensitive fast light keyboard, and good support of velocity and sustain pedal in the synth voices.

No need to wait for a poly by Studio Electronics. They make two. The C.O.D.E. and the Omega. They're amazing. Hefty price tag, but fantastic.

[Uncle E]

At one time I owned a P5 and an OBXA at the same time. In 24dB mode they didn't sound that different if you set them up in similar ways and didn't use features that were unique to either.

I've compared the Jupiter 6 and Prophet 600 side-by-side. With filters wide open, they sounded identical to me. Once the filter got involved, the Jupiter sounded much more airy, lush, and sweet.

Those audio demos of SE-02 seem real clean. Maybe they are better ladders than old Moog ladders. Maybe modern Moog-manufactured ladders are better than the old ones? Have not played recent Moog instruments.

I did not appreciate ladder filter distortion in old Moogs. Sounded un-musically "rough" to me.

ATC's and SE's are really clean. The Omega can get rougher than either of them. The two Minimoog's I owned were both very rough sounding and there was no escaping it. I happened to like that sound but I can understand where you're coming from, especially since I favor the ATC sound over almost anything these days.

FWIW, ATC's didn't have three oscillators and SE's didn't have cross mod, so the SE-02 seems like it will be a nice combination of the two of them at 1/3 the price.

[ghettosynth]

At one time I owned a P5 and an OBXA at the same time. In 24dB mode they didn't sound that different if you set them up in similar ways and didn't use features that were unique to either.

I've compared the Jupiter 6 and Prophet 600 side-by-side. With filters wide open, they sounded identical to me. Once the filter got involved, the Jupiter sounded much more airy, lush, and sweet.

Virtually identical CEM VCOs, completely different filters.

[zerocrossing]

Dunno if it is merely a sales bullet point that the device is analog? Or maybe it would be impossible to sound indistinguishably similar to the SE-02 in a polyphonic DSP digital synth?

Hard to say. I'm a big fan of the Roland ACB software. Sounds great to me. How accurate are they? Oddly, no one seems to care enough to post a decent a/b between them and the original hardware.

Hmm.. I've seen tons of ACB comparisons for the both cloud and botiques.
Just two example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSsh0DmELo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYGdVjSr4rI

Thanks. I had not seen the Starsky 106 comparison. Holy crap, that's close. I always did wonder why the software chorus was so noisy. I didn't remember my old 106 being that bad. I did see the Jrr Shop one, but that's with the Boutique which is pretty different than the plugin to my ears. I've not seen things like the SH2 or System 100. I did find a ProMars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m88nk6wis9Q

Not really an issue with me. I like the plugins and there's no way I'm filling my studio with vintage synths. I still think the SE-02 would make a nice replacement for my Neptune 2. I love the hell out of that synth, but it would be nicer to have a 3 osc analog with preset memory.

[SJ_Digriz]

I really quit paying attention after the initial boutiques came out. People did a bunch of side by side comparisons. They were all good enough to make the cost a good value, if you could live with the built in limitations. There were a couple of exceptions that I can't remember off the top of my head, but it seems your point about the chorus was one of the things that came up on either the Jupiter or Juno. Anyhow, I'm totally with you on the SE-02. It really seems like a dead center no brainer from a cost/feature/function standpoint.

[BONES]

I'll need to see the price but this does look a lot more interesting than the JP-08 or JU-06 I had for a while and if it fits in the K25m keyboard-rack thingie, even better. I wonder if it will have the other Boutique features - battery power, built-in speaker and on-board USB audio interface?

My main concern at the moment is how tightly packed the knobs are. While I'm fine with miniaturisation generally, at some point small becomes too unwieldy.

I found this a definite issue with the JP-08. It's not just how tightly packed they are but also how short the throw is on the sliders, which made it hard to get things exactly right. At least thing is all knobs, so it may not be as much of an issue. I also found that it wasn't so bad if you put it right in front of you but if you had to reach across something else to get at it, it wasn't much fun.

Something else you might be able to do to alleviate the problem is to buy a bag of knobs off eBay or AliExpress. Maybe longer, thinner knobs would make it easier to use? They do job-lots of 40 or 50 for under $20 so you can buy a few sets and do some experimenting.

[SJ_Digriz]

No speaker, it seems no battery but it does have USB MIDI/Audio ... and unlike the other boutiques, seems to have complete CC functionality to all the knobs.

[JCJR]

My main concern at the moment is how tightly packed the knobs are. While I'm fine with miniaturisation generally, at some point small becomes too unwieldy.

I found this a definite issue with the JP-08. It's not just how tightly packed they are but also how short the throw is on the sliders, which made it hard to get things exactly right.

If a set of MIDI-controlled miniature waldoes is out of the question then perhaps surgical tweezers and a stereo microscope would do.

[Shabdahbriah]

[...] if it fits in the K25m keyboard-rack thingie, even better. I wonder if it will have the other Boutique features [...] built-in speaker and on-board USB audio interface?

It does, yes.

Something else you might be able to do to alleviate the problem is to buy a bag of knobs off eBay or AliExpress. Maybe longer, thinner knobs would make it easier to use? They do job-lots of 40 or 50 for under $20 so you can buy a few sets and do some experimenting.

Just received 40 of these:

322054057746_5.jpg

from: here

to mod my two SQ-1's, and will be ordering the same (should have check the stem on it to make sure it is the same 6mm ribbed) for the SE-02. They took over a month to arrive, so I think I'll have them right about when the SE-02 is expected to ship.

all that said:

I was at this product demo last weekend. The presenters weren't mic'd, but the sound from the gear is running through a mixer, not the camera thankfully, and is loud once they start making noise.

In this video, they walked-through the The TR-09,
then the System-8 @19:00-ish,
the System 500 CS @49:00-ish,
and The SE-02 comes in@59:00-ish.

The knobs are hellishly dinky and packed too tightly in some places, for my hands, but the issue I had was that they are mainly too 'short' (stubby) to really get a feel/grip, and I will definitely swap them out for thinner taller ones.

fwiw: I was in the very back of the room about 40 feet away from the gear, behind 30-ish people sitting... and you can FEEL the bass on this thing.

Pre-ordered.

https://www.facebook.com/patchwerksseat ... 165098328/

[Shabdahbriah]

dupe

[transmetropolitan]

https://youtu.be/BXWVQE0hq5Q

Some sounds at the more aggressive end of the spectrum in this video.

I'm impressed by the oscillator tone, seems like the synth can cover quite a bit of ground.

[JCJR]

I stay out of touch but that System 8 looks nice as well. I don't need one but it looks nice.

Eight voice and supposedly can download into non-volatile storage 3 VA's in addition to the built-in System 8 personality.

From minimal reading, there seems to be a downloadable Juno 106 VA. Maybe any of those earlier plugout synths would also load into the System 8? If so, would it be 8 voice polyphonic with an SH-101 VA or whatever?

I like using DAW with hardware synths. Haven't any religious objection to using DAW with softsynths.

But for whatever reason am not so interested in computer-dependent hardware instruments-- Where instrument functionality would be significantly crippled unless computer-assisted. Am similarly disinterested in software instruments dependent on dongles, special DSP boards, or other special hardware.

Which is not necessarily rational, but perhaps based on the attitude that computer gear is nice but more ephemeral than hardware instruments. Doing honest small-business accounting (rather than accounting for the purpose of tax calculation), it would be risky to assume that computer gear should be amortized longer than perhaps 3 to 5 years. Maybe computer gear will remain profitably useful longer but could also fail or obsolete sooner.

Standalone hardware could also fail or obsolete quickly, but in my experience hardware ON AVERAGE stays useful lots longer than ephemeral computer gear.

True or not, this attitude would make me inclined to spend larger sums on hardware, expecting to derive benefit for a longer time, amortizing out fairly cheap per year of usage.

So if a hardware axe is too computer-dependent, it's "classification" devolves to the ephemerality of the computer gear on which it depends, without which the hardware might become more like a boat anchor than a useful instrument.

I have several install CDs of old Roland VST softsynths that I liked rather well, which as best I recall can't work on Win 7 and definitely do not work on Win 10. Because Roland never attempted to update those older synths to work on new OS, I harbor doubts that Roland would update current soft products to work on Win 12 and whatever machines are built in the future to host future OS. They will pay programmers to update until it is not profitable and then will no longer offer updates. Which makes perfect business sense and would be foolish to run a business otherwise.

So maybe if I notice three VA's that would be interesting to have in addition to a System 8, maybe sometime decide to get a System 8. If I could just load it up and configure it, without subscriptions or the need to maintain the synth in a future where perhaps none of the relevant computer software runs anymore on non-antique computers.