About 2 weeks ago, Ive been disciplining myself to make sure Im keeping my master level at -6db at all times. Of Course -6 if not lower but making sure to not surpass it. And doing this, Ive made 3 different songs that had really good mixes, MUCH better than what I used to make (all the mixing and everything done on headphones at low volumes) Even comparing the mix to a reference track is sounding great! Although now volume is an issue.. During the mastering stage, again it just sounds really good. But then I notice when I try to bring up the volume with gain and what not it quickly becomes distorted and loses its clarity quick. So I have to keep it down to a point to where the mix sounds good but the volume just inst "on par" commercially. What could be happening here? is this still because of my mix not being on par or is this all caused in the mastering stage?..
Master chain (FL Studio) Starting off with an EQ cutting below 25, and cutting anything above 25k. boosting higher mids a tid bit. Putting maximus on there, making everything 100 and below in mono, no gain applied there. A patcher chain converting the audio to m/s. And a limiter with alot of gain. (I have also tried applying a soft clipper in there, and it makes the distortion much worse.
I am making progressive tech house with some darkish bass and what not. Like anything youd hear on Mau5trap, similar to artists like BlackGummy, Rezz, No mana. Lol even though I wish to be like them, they are my heros XD
Any help is appreciated!! I know this is a long post. Just like to be detailed.
Where should I keep my levels in the mixing stage?
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- KVRAF
- 15272 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Commercial loudness is not easy to achieve. Like mixing, it's an art form in itself.
Are you quite shure you must DIY the mastering as well, and not let it do by a professional?
Are you quite shure you must DIY the mastering as well, and not let it do by a professional?
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My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 114 posts since 20 Jun, 2017
BertKoor wrote:Commercial loudness is not easy to achieve. Like mixing, it's an art form in itself.
Are you quite shure you must DIY the mastering as well, and not let it do by a professional?
Well, my goal is to achieve the best level of loudness as possible with my music. It can be done, so I want to do it. I really do not aspire or even expect to be as good as the greats in the audio / mixing engineering world. There are some pretty knowledgeable and skillful folks out there. But I have all the tools available to do so, I have the drive to do it, so yes more or less I want to get as close as I possibly can with it.
I dont mean to come off strong haha. But ya I dont think Ill get to a pure commercial grade. I dont really expect to, but I want to get everything as close as I can to that.
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neverwhere2410 neverwhere2410 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=371575
- KVRist
- 103 posts since 23 Dec, 2015
Loudness isn't achieved by squashing the master bus ever, and it sounds like you have a ton of processing by default on the master that you don't know if it's necessary or not. Like the m/s thing -- m/s gets a lot of hype, but you don't want to mix your whole song into m/s processing, you want to apply it at the end if you need to achieve a specific result. Generally I keep my master fader at 0, then as I mix use a gain/trim plugin to reduce the level going into the master bus as needed. The only processing I use is console and tape emulation (right now because I specifically dig the way it sounds on my tracks) -- I don't mess with EQ at all. You can use a buss compressor -- and you want to make sure it's designed to be a buss compressor -- and mix into that or apply it somewhere near the end of the mixing process, but you're only going to ever compress like 1-3dB with it, it'll be very gentle. I recommend not putting a brickwall limiter/volume maximizer on your master buss during mixing, you want to save that as the last finishing touch for the mastering stage and it's entirely possible to get your mix loud enough that you barely even need that at the end.
The trick, as I've learned, is you've got to get to "commercial" loudness levels by applying compression, limiting, saturation, soft clipping in stages across tracks as you mix. It can help if you send groups of tracks to busses for additional gentle compression and limiting, too. It's a lot of small increases in volume that add up to a much larger whole. It's a really delicate process, and it's not just smashing dynamic range, EQ plays a large part too -- you've got to learn where to cut and where to boost in individual tracks to give things space.
The trick, as I've learned, is you've got to get to "commercial" loudness levels by applying compression, limiting, saturation, soft clipping in stages across tracks as you mix. It can help if you send groups of tracks to busses for additional gentle compression and limiting, too. It's a lot of small increases in volume that add up to a much larger whole. It's a really delicate process, and it's not just smashing dynamic range, EQ plays a large part too -- you've got to learn where to cut and where to boost in individual tracks to give things space.
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- KVRAF
- 4711 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
What level puts you "on par" with commercial releases, in terms of average RMS?
There could be many reasons for the distortion. Can you perceive which part is distorting (kick, bass, snare)? It could be an unbalanced mix or simply something clipping badly in the chain or it could be something as simple as too short a release time on the low end band in Maximus - try it set to RMS detection, not Peak. Also make sure the Oversample option is checked and try Linear Phase crossovers. You can also do your high pass filter (25hz) inside Maximus... so that may you let you remove the other EQ that was doing that. Maximus is a beast and can be very heavy handed if you let it.
What limiter are you using though? For less distortion you atleast need lookahead functionality.
There could be many reasons for the distortion. Can you perceive which part is distorting (kick, bass, snare)? It could be an unbalanced mix or simply something clipping badly in the chain or it could be something as simple as too short a release time on the low end band in Maximus - try it set to RMS detection, not Peak. Also make sure the Oversample option is checked and try Linear Phase crossovers. You can also do your high pass filter (25hz) inside Maximus... so that may you let you remove the other EQ that was doing that. Maximus is a beast and can be very heavy handed if you let it.
What limiter are you using though? For less distortion you atleast need lookahead functionality.
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- KVRer
- 5 posts since 11 Jul, 2017
It could be one of many things as just mentioned but try solo-ing some tracks and bringing more in until you notice a difference in the sound and if it sounds any worse when turning up the levels maybe.
As an aside, a limiter can often help with loudness on individual tracks (without having to turn the level up too much) so it's perceived as louder.
As an aside, a limiter can often help with loudness on individual tracks (without having to turn the level up too much) so it's perceived as louder.
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- KVRAF
- 4590 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
By default I set every new track I add to -6 dB. And reduce it more often that boost 
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Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
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- KVRAF
- 4881 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki
Just a couple of remarks:
1) Remember, especially if you use plugins which emulate some classic analog hardware, t
those plugins are optimized for VU=0, i.e.
you should use VU-meter in your chain.
VU=0 typically references -18dBFS.
Therefore RMS is not the only one you should look at. -6 dBFS is a good target for your final mix master output. (And of course peaks and possible some other volume/loudnes indicators are useful to control).
But in the channel BEFORE the plugin (some plugins, read the manuals) work best at much lower levels, what comes AFTER the plugin is an other story, it may be up to -6 dBFS.
2) You didn't mention about your mastering practicies. What software, the ceiling etc.
Finally: as said in this thread, the "commercial" sound quality is not easy piece of cake to reach.
1) Remember, especially if you use plugins which emulate some classic analog hardware, t
those plugins are optimized for VU=0, i.e.
you should use VU-meter in your chain.
VU=0 typically references -18dBFS.
Therefore RMS is not the only one you should look at. -6 dBFS is a good target for your final mix master output. (And of course peaks and possible some other volume/loudnes indicators are useful to control).
But in the channel BEFORE the plugin (some plugins, read the manuals) work best at much lower levels, what comes AFTER the plugin is an other story, it may be up to -6 dBFS.
2) You didn't mention about your mastering practicies. What software, the ceiling etc.
Finally: as said in this thread, the "commercial" sound quality is not easy piece of cake to reach.
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- KVRer
- 5 posts since 22 Mar, 2016
I quick tip is, keeping your levels below 0dBs in the master channels.
If you see that the master channel is over, simply reduce linearly throughout all the channels (i.e. -3,-6,etc...).
The idea is to leave me head room for the mastering process, to create greater dynamic transitions between the sections (breakdown, build, intro, drop, etc), and poping out layers you feel still stay in the back in the mix down. Hope this helps you out.
If you see that the master channel is over, simply reduce linearly throughout all the channels (i.e. -3,-6,etc...).
The idea is to leave me head room for the mastering process, to create greater dynamic transitions between the sections (breakdown, build, intro, drop, etc), and poping out layers you feel still stay in the back in the mix down. Hope this helps you out.
