Trying to integrate 80s/90s DCO and digital synths with software - ctrlr etc. hitting walls

[ChaosComplete]

Over the past year I've been collecting synths. It started with the MKS-70 and Vecoven mod. I got a little obsessed. Since then it's grown to become:

Roland MKS-30
Roland MKS-50
Roland MKS-70
Roland D-550
Roland R8m Drum Module (2) with all 11 expansion cards.
Roland S-760 Sampler
Roland SC-880
Yamaha TG77
Technics WSA1R

The dream is to have them all work as VSTs. They're actually racked in a 20U with some adat pres, mio10 midi interface, RME ADI 648 ADAT to MADI converter, going into my RME MADI FX PCIe card.

I imagined it would be easy enough to get them all working with CTRLR, but man has it been a hassle. A few of them work well enough, although automation isn't great. Some of them don't have ctrlr panels and I'm not sure how much of an endless rabbit hole that could be learning to create them (I never learned any programming languages, and don't have time to learn lua).

I tried running the demo of midiquest, because, despite all of the hate it gets, I've seen a handful of people claiming it works great for them, and it has things, like an R8m editor, which ctrlr doesn't. No luck there though, I can't even get the "get" function to work on my mks50, although it worked with my A-50 and A-80 midi keyboard controllers.

I own a recording studio in it's first year, and am trying to build my composition portfolio. I don't have so much time for a hobby. I do have a few days I can devote to it, if I know that by the end, this will all be working smoothly for myself and clients to quickly use in sessions.

Or do I give up and sell this stuff, and stop neglecting modern hardware and software - my seaboard, linnstrument, omnisphere, etc? Shit, I could put it all up on ebay and get a dotcom.

Advice? I'm lost.

[VariKusBrainZ]

I wouldn't obesses so much and enjoy them for what they are.
Nothing wrong with just playing\tweaking\sequencing hardware and recording the audio.
Nothing beats 'of the moment creativity', most of the greatest music was\is made that way.

[ChamomileShark]

I generally find in my set up with using various dedicated editors if you start making too quick changes things lock up.

Cubase has device panels which I wish I'd known about because that might be a cheaper and easier option especially if some nice person has already created a template and has distributed it.

[grabme]

If it was my equipment I'd think about selling it and get something modern with maybe a few Roland plugouts including the D50. The Mks70 can be replaced by PG8x plugin.

The S760 sounds great but without a decent library is a pia to sample manage. I wouldn't have it as my main sampler, I'd use a Akai S5000, Z4 or EMU Ultra with wav compatibility as its a heck of a lot easier. Maybe consider using a softsampler and run the digital outs into the S760 to get that sound.

Not sure if the TG77 can be replaced in software but I've heard plugins that sound just as good and the FM side is easily replaced with Dexed. I think you need a softsynth or modern hardware synth with modern more powerful sounds if you are running a studio.

I'd sample the R8 or get Waves Alchemy Revolution.

[fmr]

Not sure if the TG77 can be replaced in software but I've heard plugins that sound just as good and the FM side is easily replaced with Dexed. I think you need a softsynth or modern hardware synth with modern more powerful sounds if you are running a studio.

The FM part of TG77 cannot be compared with the DX7, therefore, it will NOT be replaced by DeXed (easily or not). It's WAY MORE developed (for some reason Yamaha called AFM - Advanced FM). There are 16 waveforms (compared to just sine in DX7) and 45 algorithms (compared to just 32 in DX7). Besides, you can make AWM interact with AFM (what Yamaha called RCM - Realtime Convolution and Modulation), and you also have the AWM (PCM) part, of course, and a subtractive architecture, with filters (admitedly, not very good) and effects (the effects on the TG77 were equivalent to the SPX90, while those in the SY99 were equivalent to the SPX900/SPX1000). And each program can have up to four elements (1 AFM, 1 AWM, 1 AFM + 1 AWM, 2 AFM, 2 AWM, 2 AFM + 2 AWM, 4 AFM, 4 AWM).

Besides all this, the SY99 added the possibility ot use our own multisamples integrated in the whole package.

There's nothing like SY/TG77 or SY99 in the software realm, as there isn't either for the FS1R (which was the next level of FM). I wish there was...

[fmr]

Regarding the questions made by the OP, someone advised these to me. There are demos you can try. They support some (but not all) of the synths you own.

Synths supported that are in you list: Roland MKS-50; Roland MKS-70; Roland D-550

[grabme]

Not sure if the TG77 can be replaced in software but I've heard plugins that sound just as good and the FM side is easily replaced with Dexed. I think you need a softsynth or modern hardware synth with modern more powerful sounds if you are running a studio.

The FM part of TG77 cannot be compared with the DX7, therefore, it will NOT be replaced by DeXed (easily or not). It's WAY MORE developed (for some reason Yamaha called AFM - Advanced FM). There are 16 waveforms (compared to just sine in DX7) and 45 algorithms (compared to just 32 in DX7). Besides, you can make AWM interact with AFM (what Yamaha called RCM - Realtime Convolution and Modulation), and you also have the AWM (PCM) part, of course, and a subtractive architecture, with filters (admitedly, not very good) and effects (the effects on the TG77 were equivalent to the SPX90, while those in the SY99 were equivalent to the SPX900/SPX1000). And each program can have up to four elements (1 AFM, 1 AWM, 1 AFM + 1 AWM, 2 AFM, 2 AWM, 2 AFM + 2 AWM, 4 AFM, 4 AWM).

Besides all this, the SY99 added the possibility ot use our own multisamples integrated in the whole package.

There's nothing like SY/TG77 or SY99 in the software realm, as there isn't either for the FS1R (which was the next level of FM). I wish there was...

You are talking abut the TG77 synthesis instead of the plain vanilla FM synth. Dexed can replace the FM side easily as I mentioned earlier. I've had them side by side and there isn't enough in it to justify using hardware imo but others may disagree.

Of course Dexed isn't going to replace the Advanced FM synthesis, I never said it could. However I could probably live with FM8 plugin to replace it, not the same but very powerful. Not heard much on the FS1R that wowed me over FM8 plugin.

[fmr]

You are talking abut the TG77 synthesis instead of the plain vanilla FM synth. Dexed can replace the FM side easily as I mentioned earlier. I've had them side by side and there isn't enough in it to justify using hardware imo but others may disagree.

Of course Dexed isn't going to replace the Advanced FM synthesis.

He has a TG77, not a "plain vanilla FM synth". So, what I described is what HE HAS, which CANNOT be replaced by anything you listed. So...

And, contrary to what you wrote later, yes, you said that it could replace "the FM side" (QUOTE: "Not sure if the TG77 can be replaced in software but I've heard plugins that sound just as good and the FM side is easily replaced with Dexed" END OF QUOTE), and in your reply to my post, you wrote it can (AGAIN), and then, in the last paragraph, you wrote it can't.

Seems like you have to make up your mind. Either it can, or it can't. Clearly, IMO, it can't replace the TG77 AFM.

[ChaosComplete]

I wouldn't obesses so much and enjoy them for what they are.
Nothing wrong with just playing\tweaking\sequencing hardware and recording the audio.
Nothing beats 'of the moment creativity', most of the greatest music was\is made that way.

Definitely a valid thought, and something I try to keep in mind in general.

I generally find in my set up with using various dedicated editors if you start making too quick changes things lock up.

Cubase has device panels which I wish I'd known about because that might be a cheaper and easier option especially if some nice person has already created a template and has distributed it.

I looked into that a little, but another DAW is the last thing I want. Some version of those is available in REAPER (my main DAW), but I mostly saw patch change capability, nothing like an editor/librarian.

If it was my equipment I'd think about selling it and get something modern with maybe a few Roland plugouts including the D50. The Mks70 can be replaced by PG8x plugin.

The S760 sounds great but without a decent library is a pia to sample manage. I wouldn't have it as my main sampler, I'd use a Akai S5000, Z4 or EMU Ultra with wav compatibility as its a heck of a lot easier. Maybe consider using a softsampler and run the digital outs into the S760 to get that sound.

Not sure if the TG77 can be replaced in software but I've heard plugins that sound just as good and the FM side is easily replaced with Dexed. I think you need a softsynth or modern hardware synth with modern more powerful sounds if you are running a studio.

I'd sample the R8 or get Waves Alchemy Revolution.

I have the Roland Cloud stuff, and while amazingly close to the software the D-50 back to back isn't exactly the same. Now, don't get me wrong, it's totally good enough, and maybe more worthwhile given the flexibility. Same goes for FM8, but the liveliness, depth, and character of the hardware has me a bit smitten. The S760 I just thought had the best mellotron samples I heard anywhere, and was going to start by using it just for that and maybe eventually running other stuff through it for the converters. Any real sampling I do is in Kontakt. The R8, again has a certain character, but I need to dig a little deeper and do more testing before I decide I'm keeping it. Those last two could potentially not stick around forever.

This is all about getting that last 5%. I rarely program, I'm mainly playing in parts on midi controllers, and as far as dynamic response and nuance, the hardware in general seems to outperform software.

Regarding the questions made by the OP, someone advised these to me. There are demos you can try. They support some (but not all) of the synths you own.

Synths supported that are in you list: Roland MKS-50; Roland MKS-70; Roland D-550

I'll definitely check those out, thank you. I'm surprised I didn't find them in any of my searching.


At this point I have a bit of help at the studio from a couple of people I reached out to, so we're chipping away at them. I'm sure this would've been easier one at a time, but I tend to take on big projects all at once, for better or for worse. I had to solder a broken pcb trace for the voice button on the TG77 - that was the problem with the ctrlr panel, it doesn't work in multi mode and that's what the unit was stuck on. Now that seems to be functional. The only thing I'm not sure about with ctrlr is actually coming back to the Reaper session and having it be recalled. Might have to save the panel state each time. I really wish it would just work like a normal vst synth and stay that way. Automation seems hit or miss too, but perhaps digging into ctrlr will allow that. I can automate some parameters on some panels, just not all.

[fmr]

At this point I have a bit of help at the studio from a couple of people I reached out to, so we're chipping away at them. I'm sure this would've been easier one at a time, but I tend to take on big projects all at once, for better or for worse. I had to solder a broken pcb trace for the voice button on the TG77 - that was the problem with the ctrlr panel, it doesn't work in multi mode and that's what the unit was stuck on. Now that seems to be functional. The only thing I'm not sure about with ctrlr is actually coming back to the Reaper session and having it be recalled. Might have to save the panel state each time. I really wish it would just work like a normal vst synth and stay that way. Automation seems hit or miss too, but perhaps digging into ctrlr will allow that. I can automate some parameters on some panels, just not all.

The way I work with the TG77 and SY99 through MIDI, is by having them always in Multi mode. I build a Multi with Programs from the banks I want to use in the proper places (Usually I just use the Internal Bank and the Card Bank, because those are the ones where I can store the self programmed sounds). Then, I choose the sounds in each one by sending Program Changes, which are stored in the tracks in the sequence. I always take note, for each work, of which Multi I used (I also give names to the Multis that allow me to locate them easily). The tracks are also named after the program name I use in TG77 or SY99.

Next time I want to work with them, it's just a matter of selecting the proper Multi, and all the sounds play exactly as I want them. Inside the Multi, you can automate several parameters of each sound, like volume, pan, etc, using MIDI control messages.