Programming cymbal sounds, good synths?

[pdxindy]

However, when it comes to realistic drums and just 'hitting' the drum, sure, samples are enough, I would say, at least deeply sampled, multi-layer samples.

Really depends on the type of drum and the player. My housemate plays a range of different hand drums.

Also, the more variety of samples, the more complex it is to use that variety. Having to do articulation switching is not the same realtime fluid experience.

[pdxindy]

There is a new reason for wanting to make and use synthesised cymbals (and other perc/drum sounds) instead of samples: 5D sounds in MPE compatible synths and controllers.

Here, a sound needs to respond to several dimensions of touch, so if I slide, I would want my cymbal to modulate somehow. It's much more interesting to do that with a synthesised sound since we can get at the very DNA of the sound and mangle it via sliding, gliding or pressing. A sample would need to rely on good effects to achieve a comparable level of sonic transformation. Maybe using Ring-mods, phasers, tuned delays, and similar, would affect the sample in interesting cool ways, but this process relies on having those effects to begin with, whereas, if the sound is synthesized with FM, it is easy to modulate the FM parameters and create a cool new sound via sliding or gliding on an MPE controller. Simply tear the very harmonics of the sound which is not possible with samples alone.

If anyone has access to an MPE controller, and has a synth that responds to MPE or can be easily loaded multiple times in a DAW (with access to CC74 at least) then do try making such 'dimensional' drum sounds. It really opens up sound design to new ideas and presents interesting challenges in the process. Pure fun!

I'm so loving my Linnstrument. It feels like an instrument - So sensitive, nuanced and expressive. I've been waiting for this for 25 years!!

I do think the MPE controllers (I expect to get a Rise at some point too, but will wait at least 6 months) highlight the benefit of synthesis. It is so easy now to do all sorts of 'in the flow' pitch slides and pitch slides of samples sometimes does not sound quite right. As you said, the fundamental DNA of the sound fluidly shifts with synthesis.

btw, I just started exploring it, but Phonem and Wavemapper 2 both have VpC mode. And with Linnstrument and Logic, all the u-he synths (except Zebra until v3) work as desired (Bazille is wow!). I currently have 9 synths to use with the Linnstrument

[jbuonacc]

... Modulation is a rather fuzzy term, I don't even know what it means in the case of cymbals.

...yet you're still yapping away.

you've got to be the most outspoken but quite obviously completely naive/ignorant person i've ever seen. love to argue and give your baseless "opinions" about things that you can barely grasp the concept of.

always a pleasure to see, keep it up.

[himalaya]

It is so easy now to do all sorts of 'in the flow' pitch slides and pitch slides of samples sometimes does not sound quite right. As you said, the fundamental DNA of the sound fluidly shifts with synthesis.

This is one of the main problems when using samples and pitch-bend, especially on these MPE controllers which allow for extreme, multi-octave pitch glides. To deal with this, I like to use a COMB filter assigned to pitch-bend, to mask the artefacts of formant stretching in samples. It can work well on certain samples where extreme pitch glides are more palatable with the COMB filter then when used without.

[kokotte]

second try :
https://soundcloud.com/kokotteonline/cymbal-2nd-run

[Armagibbon]

I have try to make a " kind of " crash with Rapid (noise, 2 osc, a comb filter, an hp and some fx)
it s not the best crash in the world, just a first try
https://soundcloud.com/kokotteonline/cymbal-first-run

Nice. That's real close to cymbals a2. For a variation add some quick lp filter motion in the attack to make it a little closed at the start then let it ring out.

[camsr]

Sounds fairly decent kokotte, both of them, wondering how you did it!

[Zombie Queen]

Of all electronic drum synthesizer I tried, I thought Waldorf Attack has the most convincing cymbals, however somewhat limited in tweakability.

[sqigls]

AudioThing Hats can do some good cymbals too...

https://www.audiothing.net/instruments/hats/

[Lotuzia]

Fm and additive synths, combined with BP and comb filters give good 'realistic' results rather easily. WT and BP filters are good also, for instruments like huge gongs etc. Being able to both have a rich spectrum, and deeply emphasise certain harmonics for the core sound is the fastest way. Plethora of modulations helps for expressivity. Substractive are suitable for all kind of 'electronic' cymbals or percs. The way they handle the noise oscillator(s) being the key to more/less versatile sounds.

As with any other sound category, some different architectures will lead into some varieties of cymbal sounds. Wich one is better is a matter of taste, without the addition of any precise criteria like realism etc.( Nobody can tell the tr-606 minimal cymbal is better than the SP-12 rageous brute crash, though obviously they are vastly different, and both have their fans ...)

[kokotte]

Sounds fairly decent kokotte, both of them, wondering how you did it!

i have do it with Rapid but the process could be done in a lot of ather synth:
noise, comb filter, Hp,
a Wt with harmo, some env and some fx( a eq modulate, for the mid frq, comp, chorus, rev) Rm
i could share the presets if someone wants, but it's not the best cymb in the world.
with some focus, i could be a lot better.
About Mpe, i just know Falcon who have a comb filter, perhaps Cypher, if someone can tell me other mpe synth with a great comb....

[Hez]

Using 'just' FM can be very difficult. Anything to do with cymbals ( as well as hi-hats) needs an array of controllable harmonics. A harmonic oscillator, or an additive oscillator/engine really come in handy here. There is an amazing way to make closed hats with a harmonic oscillator. Most people use noise, and I was too for a long time, but someone (thanks Angus!) showed me a way to make hats with a series of harmonics and a HPF. It sounds so good!

Something I like to add to my synthesised cymbals is a chorus effect. It can smear the harmonic content adding a nice 'metallic sheen' to the sound.

Despite the OP not wanting to use noise, I found that some noise is still needed for the transient 'attack' stage of the sound. Although with a complex FM engine noise can be easily obtained from a few operators.

Care to share your secrets ? Sounds very interesting!

[xoxos]

stuff i like from me,

'starcym' (not free atm, one day) uses a "2d geometry FDN" with a facile configuration for producing inharmonic delay lengths by fitting them to a circle...... the complexity and parameterisation result in flexible timbral description which can sound pretty acoustic cymbally, and with appreciative user feedback, but to me, it always sounds like the cymbal is "frozen" and doesn't rock around like an acoustic cymbal. as such, works imo for some apps.

'mass-springs vst cymbal' as a couple of mass-springs in series with a hp noise augmentation. the two m-s vst have imo very enjoyable timbral response to dynamic playing, they sound "acoustic" when you hit them harder, but the simple method (this was like, first build, haven't updated) is a bit mp3ish at times. depends on patch. can be a lot of fun, again for some apps.

the cyms on bong are of course not an acoustic emulation and i don't know why people would think they are, but often mentioned in this context, i guess because i'm a modeler.

for generalised synths, i like hats with angle, the 'chaos oscillator' (and similar synths) whip up inharmonic spectra real fast.


a technique i've used recently but haven't vst'ed is to take samples of acoustic hats, fft to derive the spectral magnitudes, edit/mix this if you want, then resynthesise this data into a new wav file, with randomised phase information (high freqs = okay to do this). then you just play the wav in a loop without retriggering it, with a flexible amp envelope, and you have "non-machine gun" hats that sound like samples. as always, this dumbass is way ahead of all your favourite companies on this simple, primitive concept. meanwhile you can argue about that you should only use samples with your favourite kvr puppets who are sure to be here to ensure such discussions happen, as if it were twenty years ago and people liked having a useless unsolicited dick slapped in their face.

[Ah_Dziz]

I have try to make a " kind of " crash with Rapid (noise, 2 osc, a comb filter, an hp and some fx)
it s not the best crash in the world, just a first try
https://soundcloud.com/kokotteonline/cymbal-first-run

Sounds more like a splash, but still a good synthesized cymbal. I figured the OP was talking about 808 style cymbals. Using resonators along with noise and a couple flexible oscillators you can get into pretty "live" sounding physical modeling. The xoxoxs stuff gets you there very quickly and with great sound quality at the cost of being 32 bit only (last I checked).

[Ah_Dziz]

Any synth with 2 filters, 2 or more osc, along with some Am/ RM and FM will let you get some great cymbal stuff that has tonality while still being nice and noisy. Zebra is a good synth for this.