bx_console E 4K console emulation

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Thavma wrote:I don't know I am very confused to if I should buy a bx_console or nebula plugins or nothing out of plugins...and rather buy hardware.
Ask yourself if that's (subtle analog mojo /non-linearities) really adding that much of a difference to your current work, is that really only reason why your work doesn't stand out?

I'm not mixing engineer and I make music for few folks who dig it no matter if I mixed it or knocked up an rough sketch, they listen to music and emotion I tried to achieve with actual composition and sounds, that 5% mojo doesn't really make much difference to them or me really, so ask yourself the same, does it makes difference to you?
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

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Ah, the nebula thing.

I have absolutely NO DOUBT that it sounds brilliant.

TTBOMK, it's also buggy as hell and super CPU intensive. Or have they fixed that?

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Zexila wrote:
Thavma wrote:I don't know I am very confused to if I should buy a bx_console or nebula plugins or nothing out of plugins...and rather buy hardware.
Ask yourself if that's (subtle analog mojo /non-linearities) really adding that much of a difference to your current work, is that really only reason why your work doesn't stand out?

I'm not mixing engineer and I make music for few folks who dig it no matter if I mixed it or knocked up an rough sketch, they listen to music and emotion I tried to achieve with actual composition and sounds, that 5% mojo doesn't really make much difference to them or me really, so ask yourself the same, does it makes difference to you?
Good points. We’ get so focused on sound itself that we sometimes lose the holistic perspective of the music created from it (trees/forest, micro/macro metaphor).

Ask yourself.. before you became a musician/producer, before you became obsessed with plugins and minute differences between them, when you were just a music lover and you listened to a great song for the first time.. did you ever consider any piece of hardware or software used in its creation? For me it’s a no. The only perspective you had was the power and emotion in the song.

But... if bx_console makes you smile... use it :)

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wesleyt wrote:I personally hope that there will be additional discounts for those who already own bx_console, but I've not heard any such assurance yet.
No assurances, but Dirk has at least mentioned that current bx_console owners can expect some sort of special pricing.
It was a little while ago, and what that pricing could be wasn't mentioned, but we can only wait and hope.

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Compared sonically in 44100 resolution with Waves E-Channel and Slate FG-S + FG-401 combo and my preference from these 3:
1. Slate - best EQ
2. Brainworx - best compressor
3. Waves - good all-rounder but nothing special compared to other two

88200 resolution helps Waves mostly. I would go with any of them now

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To me the only dry sample sounds obviously different. It needs a bit of additional compression. To some extent the same can perhaps be said about bx_console and waves. Perhaps it's all placebo, who knows. If you turn the volume a little up in one of them, that may override the decision.
~stratum~

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BRBWaffles wrote:
AC222 wrote:Most of the algorithmic eqs miss both the sense of "air" and "depth" of the real deal or Acustica Nebula for that matter.
I don't know very much about DSP programming, but from what I understand the brittle high-end sound that characterized digital equalizers of old is a result of the floating point precision of the DSP itself. Not necessary the mere fact that it is digital. The higher the floating point, the more high end data the DSP can manage accurately. Higher frequencies literally carry larger numerical information and require higher precision, so they more heavily burden the floating point of the DSP. With today's plugins, this is less of a concern as I understand it. But, I have to state again that I do not know much about DSP programming, and I'm reiterating an explanation that was given to me. Take it with a grain of salt. But, I personally don't buy the idea that most digital EQs lack "air" or "depth". Those statements are vague, and don't seem coherent to me at all.
Playing humble, but you're not fooling me, it seems you do not a lot about DSP programming :tu:

I will say this. There is DEFINITELY a difference between floating point, fixed point, and different sample rates. To start, I have yet to hear anything in the box summed that sounds better than SawStudio. SawStudio is one of the few DAWs that is fixed point and it is much, much better than anything else I have rendered through other DAWs. No, it is not pan law...No, it is not my imagination. And no, your null tests are not proof that they are all the same. It's funny that I've seen many tests with completely different eqs from different developers and different levels of aliasing and somehow they sound totally different and yet they null.

Beyond the whole summing debate, it's also pretty clear that the ProTools HD plugins from all the developers sound better in ProTools HD than the native versions. Funny enough, I downloaded a bunch of clips from Gearslutz comparing SSL plugins of various developers to hardware. And you guessed it, the HD version sounded night and day better than the native version. None were close to the Alan Smart or SSL X-Rack. The Liquid Mix was ok but sounded kind of flat and had that weird dead sounding haze in the mids that you hear from many convolution plugins. Yes, they are using fixed point processing for the Protools HD programming. And no, this phenomenon is not limited to ProTools HD.

The defunct TC Powercore also used fixed point processing. And it's funny how many owners of the PowerCore and Native Softube Cl1B plugins were dismayed at the difference in sound quality. It was reported by many that the PowerCore plugins somehow had a better soundstage, sounded smoother, had more clarity, and to another poster's point a much, much better low end. Owning the Powercore System and the Cl1b plugin, I was able to check out versus the native version and confirm these findings.

Anyhow, this is all good food for talk. And I've found oversampling helps quite a bit. My personal experience is that Nebula sounds about 98% close to hardware and has the depth and 3d character. Digital alone sounds more 2d. When I use some good plugins that add harmonics such as Waves NLS, I can get closer to what a want but it's more like 2.5d as opposed to 3d. But when I stack with the right plugins in series, I can get closer.

Even in 2017, I find Nebula a pain in the arse to use with both the way it is set up to dealing with the cpu hit. I don't like to even have to think about cpu constraints in today's age. I want to be just be focusing 100% on creativity. Also, along with the cpu hit is the latency issue. When computers finally catch up, it will be a great day but Intel has been holding back on us for the last 8 years. CPUS haven't gotten much faster than 2009 and that's sad. Nebula has become better coded and more cpu-efficient but still isn't where I'd like it to be.

Anyhow, I am going to experiment with this new Waves Tonecentric plugin I picked up. It's nice. The Cupwise Nebula libraries for the SSL 9K are INCREDIBLE. I am almost get that tone when coupling my Metric Halo Channel strip and Waves NLS (yes SSL4k should be way more forward in the mids than a 9k but somehow I can cop a similar sound) bus in series. Not quite 100% there but close enough that I enjoy this configuration.

So you can see I have high hopes for this plugin. We shall see!

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AC222 wrote:And no, your null tests are not proof that they are all the same. It's funny that I've seen many tests with completely different eqs from different developers and different levels of aliasing and somehow they sound totally different and yet they null.
Everything before and after this statement sounded perfectly reasonable. I have to take issue with it. When signals null, it means there is literally no difference between them. What differentiating characteristics could two signals have that could cause them to literally sound different, but also entirely null? That seems very much like a nonsensical statement. If the signals null, it's literally because there is no difference. If the differences you describe can be measured in terms of depth or "3d" as opposed to "2d" (whatever that means), surely those characteristics can be measured. A null test is the method for illuminating those differences. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you're hearing a difference between two signals that null to inf, it's likely all in your head.

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simon.a.billington wrote:Nice!!

Brittle highends were a result of computations being done at lower sample rates, like 44.1. In the days of oversampling this shouldn't be the case. Brainworx has been known for its oversampling so it shouldn't be an issue.
bx console does not oversample. 100% fact.

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Zexila wrote:
Thavma wrote:I don't know I am very confused to if I should buy a bx_console or nebula plugins or nothing out of plugins...and rather buy hardware.
Ask yourself if that's (subtle analog mojo /non-linearities) really adding that much of a difference to your current work, is that really only reason why your work doesn't stand out?

I'm not mixing engineer and I make music for few folks who dig it no matter if I mixed it or knocked up an rough sketch, they listen to music and emotion I tried to achieve with actual composition and sounds, that 5% mojo doesn't really make much difference to them or me really, so ask yourself the same, does it makes difference to you?
THIS! :clap:

/Joachim
If it were easy, anybody could do it!

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sfxsound3 wrote:It WAS high-end in the seventies. Now it's low-end, and your DAW mixer is high-end.

Noise and distortion = 'analog'. Like we didn't have enough of this shit already!
:hihi: :clap:

/Joachim
If it were easy, anybody could do it!

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AC222 wrote:Playing humble, but you're not fooling me, it seems you do not a lot about DSP programming :tu:

<...>
And no, your null tests are not proof that they are all the same.
neither do you, it seems. if it nulls, it's the same. period. null test is measurement. if there are no measurable differences, there are no differences between two signals. "but i hear things" is not a counter-argument to a null test, it's a demonstration that you have no understanding of what null test does.
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.

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How can a null test be 100% valid when there are frequencies that are beyond our perception and measuring devices?
:clown:

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Everglide wrote:How can a null test be 100% valid when there are frequencies that are beyond our perception and measuring devices?
:clown:
yep, and then there's also astral plane that null test doesn't pick up on!
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.

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kmonkey wrote:
simon.a.billington wrote:Nice!!

Brittle highends were a result of computations being done at lower sample rates, like 44.1. In the days of oversampling this shouldn't be the case. Brainworx has been known for its oversampling so it shouldn't be an issue.
bx console does not oversample. 100% fact.
Could be true. I know they have other products that do, but I work at 96 and it never occurred to me as an issue.

However in a recent conversation online, somewhere out there s PA Dev popped in and voiced up about their oversampling technique.

The plugins have oversampling built in automatically corresponding with your host session rate.

48kHz => 4x
96kHz => 2x
192kHz no oversampling.

I just can't verify whether bx_console is among these, but I can't imagine why it wouldn't be. They're not really something you would want to track through. There no advantages of it to NOT oversample.

And I don't think they are foolish enough to leave it out either.
Last edited by simon.a.billington on Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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