Minimoog Softsynth Shootout: Diva MiniV3 Monark Legend Minimonsta vs Model D

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fluffy_little_something wrote:Not from my perspective as to me it is obvious that there is some sort of equalization. How and why it has been implemented and what it is called in technical terms is beyond my knowledge, but my DAW clearly shows me the result of it.

And, the frequency response seems to play a big role in how a given synth sounds. Anyone who has ever played around with synths' built-in or external equalizers knows that.
Fine. Get the proof and then we can go from there. Otherwise, these are just unfounded "accusations".

Oh, and if Diva DOES use equalization on the bass end, so what?

Again, we can go to every synth ever made and take out whatever things we want to take out from that synth that make it sound "good" and THAT synth will sound like crap too.

So what does it prove? Nothing. Good for Urs for using whatever he uses to make his synths sound so good because they blow away 99% of the synths out there as far as sound quality.

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I didn't make "accusations". That word implies something bad, which is not the case.
I am merely describing what I think gives Diva the bottom edge that many people on KVR keep mentioning.
And yes, one can do it on other synths as well, once one knows what to look for.

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fluffy_little_something wrote:Was just checking and comparing something between Diva and Sylenth1, and noticed that Diva seems to employ some internal equalization. When you take the J8 init patch for instance and turn the oscillator mix balance all to a single oscillator, then play a low note and one 4 or 5 octaves higher, the bass notes is just a whole lot louder according to the meter. With the init patches on other synths that is not the case. In other words, what would be left of the often praised bottom of Diva if one could turn off the internal eq?
I wouldn't say it's equalization on Diva's side. My analog Minimoog does the same. Also the Nord Modular. Haven't checked other analog or software synths, but I would expect such a behaviour comparing a low and a high note.

So I'd go even further and assert that Sylenth does something "unexpected". Even there I'd assume it's not equalization, rather something else.
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fluffy_little_something wrote:I didn't make "accusations". That word implies something bad, which is not the case.
I am merely describing what I think gives Diva the bottom edge that many people on KVR keep mentioning.
And yes, one can do it on other synths as well, once one knows what to look for.
Okay then, if we agree on that much, that you can do this with any synth made if you know what to look for, what's the point?

You're dealing with a hypothetical that's never going to happen. Even if Urs came here and said "Yes, that's what gives Diva its bottom end" do you think if you asked him to remove the EQ to hear what Diva sounded like without it that he would? Of course not.

So what's the point? I mean it's like saying "If Angelina Joli was uglier, I might have a chance to go on a date with her." Well, she's not. And she's probably not going to be until she's old and gray and that's IF she doesn't have any cosmetic surgery.

It's a pointless question. It can't be proven. And the act of removing "whatever' will never happen.

And with that, I'm going to wonder what my life would be like if I owned KVR Forum.

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wagtunes wrote:Okay then, if we agree on that much, that you can do this with any synth made if you know what to look for, what's the point?

You're dealing with a hypothetical that's never going to happen. Even if Urs came here and said "Yes, that's what gives Diva its bottom end" do you think if you asked him to remove the EQ to hear what Diva sounded like without it that he would? Of course not.

So what's the point? I mean it's like saying "If Angelina Joli was uglier, I might have a chance to go on a date with her." Well, she's not. And she's probably not going to be until she's old and gray and that's IF she doesn't have any cosmetic surgery.

It's a pointless question. It can't be proven. And the act of removing "whatever' will never happen.

And with that, I'm going to wonder what my life would be like if I owned KVR Forum.
Well, it is of interest to me, and maybe to others as well, that's all. If you don't care, why even reply? Are you bored? No patches to improve?

And you can keep Jolie, I wouldn't date that ugly woman if she paid me for it :P

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stardustmedia wrote:I wouldn't say it's equalization on Diva's side. My analog Minimoog does the same. Also the Nord Modular. Haven't checked other analog or software synths, but I would expect such a behaviour comparing a low and a high note.

So I'd go even further and assert that Sylenth does something "unexpected". Even there I'd assume it's not equalization, rather something else.
And is it like that on the Minimoog on purpose or merely the consequence of certain technical conditions?

Yes, maybe making every note sound equally loud is the exception, and might contribute to some synths' reputation of sounding bright and/or lacking bottom.

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fluffy_little_something wrote:And is it like that on the Minimoog on purpose or merely the consequence of certain technical conditions?
I have no clue. I'm no synth developer nor electronic nerd. Otherwise I'd tell. Nevertheless I assume it's natural since lower notes carry more energy. Most synths just don't compensate for this.

This is really just a wild guess.
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fluffy_little_something wrote:Diva seems to employ some internal equalization
Nope, doesn't.

(It may *seem* so, but it's just the interaction of the parts found in those synths. What I'm saying is, we didn't model the synth and then add an EQ to make it sound better. It sounds like it does because of the accuracy of the models)

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Many synths i had used including both hardware and software and especially analog ones are louder in the low octaves. This is not a "bug", that's just the way it works in those synths.

If all notes have a similar volume some kind of Limiter might be involved. As many people seem to use a Limiter by default in their hosts they might get a wrong impression about this kind of volume behavior in certain synths. Several synths include a built-in Limiter too so it depends on if this is used or not.
For example if i add a Limiter to Diva all notes in low and higher octaves seem to have a more or less similar volume. So if this is the kind of behavior you want to have then use a Limiter.

Sample playback synths that use multisamples with a normalized volume might have a similar volume in different octaves too. Depending on the synth engine even in such cases there might be a difference in the volume of lower and higher octaves in a final patch. The filter and filter keytracking (depending on the amount) might have an influence there too.

Diva in the Amp section also allows mapping keytracking/keyfollow to the Amp volume which might be interesting to get a certain volume behavior (this is also possible in other synth that have a kind of mod matrix). If you set the keytracking to +100 (= maximum) low octaves will be more quiete while higher octaves are louder.

In Waldorf PPG Wave 3.V at the MIOD/modulation page you could set a ratio (from 10:1 over 10:10 to 1:10) that that sets the volume ratio of low and high notes. Actually it is volume keytracking as mentioned above.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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After nearly 40 pages we finally reach the answer:
Pulsar900 (suitably patched) is simply the BEST (whatever all you proud synthie daddies explain in depth, in detail and with holy furor)
:borg:

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martinjuenke wrote:After nearly 40 pages we finally reach the answer:
Pulsar900 (suitably patched) is simply the BEST (whatever all you proud synthie daddies explain in depth, in detail and with holy furor)
:borg:
As Pulsar900 is OSX only and i am a Windows user since more than 25 years (or more) i do not really care about Pulsar900 yet (until it might be also available for Windows).

Speaking about Minimoog emulations The Legend is simply the best for me. While i also got Monark (now as part of Komplete 10 and before that as a singke product) and Arturia Mini V3 (as part of V-Collection 5) i do rarely or almost never use them anymore.

Diva is another thing as it offers a lot more beyond being an emulation of a single synth.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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Urs wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:Diva seems to employ some internal equalization
Nope, doesn't.

(It may *seem* so, but it's just the interaction of the parts found in those synths. What I'm saying is, we didn't model the synth and then add an EQ to make it sound better. It sounds like it does because of the accuracy of the models)
Thank God we've put that to rest. Now we can stop with these stupid, unfounded assumptions.

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Amazing how Fluffy Little Something always finds new stuff to complain about in certain synths.

I tried to poit that out in my post above. If you think that a certain synth has a similar volume in all octaves you might check if you use a kind of Limiter, eihter external or a built-in one. Using a Limiter will drastically change the observed volume behavior.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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fluffy_little_something wrote:And no, again, not based on my ears, but based on my DAW's meter when playing a single low vs a single high note.
Peak level display has little to do with loudness.

Note, that Diva produces a kinda asymmetrical saw wave. The waveform may be slightly different in higher octaves. Also the default filter keytracking is zero leading to damping of higher notes.

So: When I switch to triangle wave (which is symmetrical), set filter keytrack to full, switch of the HP filter, I get a very similar output level on all octaves.

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Chris-S wrote:Peak level display has little to do with loudness.

Note, that Diva produces a kinda asymmetrical saw wave. The waveform may be slightly different in higher octaves. Also the default filter keytracking is zero leading to damping of higher notes.

So: When I switch to triangle wave (which is symmetrical), set filter keytrack to full, switch of the HP filter, I get a very similar output level on all octaves.
Well, when cutoff is set to max, filter kb tracking doesn't play a role, anyway.
I doubt many people use triangle for synth basses, other than sub maybe. By far the most important waves there are saw and pulse.
It seems A2 or so (with osc set to 8') is the note below which low notes' volume increases on Diva.

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