Is there a way to effectively increase the separation between mid and side content of a stereo file?
I guess it's almost like a crossover type of arrangement - the stuff tending towards the centre becomes MORE mono, and the stuff tending towards the sides becomes MORE stereo/wide. You'd need a control for where that happens and how sharp the effect is. I'm sort of thinking of this as a way to increase width of a stereo mix (ie: mastering) but whilst also maintaining or even increasing mono compatibility of the centre elements.
In my head this sounds like it could be a good idea but maybe it's not a good idea in practice?
I know one way to achieve something similar is to mono the low end and increase width of the high mids... similar but not the same, though?
Plugin/technique to increase difference between mid/side?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4710 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
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- KVRAF
- 2564 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
After a day or so of head-scratching, I have something!
My prototype uses six plugins: three instances each of Waves S1 and Klanghelm VUMT. The VUMT is being used as a traditional mid-side gain control, and the S1 is being used to rotate the signal. This is not the same thing as a stereo balance; it's related to mid/side processing and shuffles information around between the stereo channels.
In REAPER the included "JS: Stereo Field Manipulator" could be used instead of S1; I don't know of other plugins that do this trick but it must be a pretty simple linear process. For the mid/side gain control there are lots of options, Voxengo's MSED is good. Actually the JS stereo plugin can do this bit as well!
The idea is to rotate the stereo field so that the bit we want to remove is in the middle, then cut it out by reducing the mids gain. So the chain is:
rotate -22.5 degrees
trim mid -6 dB
rotate +45 degrees
trim mid -6 dB
rotate -22.5 degrees
makeup gain and final mid-side adjustment to taste.
A bit of mathematical analysis could probably reduce the number of steps involved; this is just a bunch of projecting vectors onto different bases. Even in this form it probably wouldn't be that much work to turn it into a JS plugin!
I tried this out with a sequence synth notes panned to different locations, and while I wouldn't say the result was totally independent control of the in-between-positions I was able to significantly emphasis the mids and sides. It did some interesting things to a commercial mix and did create a sense of "space", albeit a weird phase-y one. Definitely need to check the mono mix, as you are absolutely pulling out material from the track. Perhaps in moderation this could be handy in mastering; it might be more useful to boost the "in-betweens" as an alternative to cutting the overall stereo width.
My prototype uses six plugins: three instances each of Waves S1 and Klanghelm VUMT. The VUMT is being used as a traditional mid-side gain control, and the S1 is being used to rotate the signal. This is not the same thing as a stereo balance; it's related to mid/side processing and shuffles information around between the stereo channels.
In REAPER the included "JS: Stereo Field Manipulator" could be used instead of S1; I don't know of other plugins that do this trick but it must be a pretty simple linear process. For the mid/side gain control there are lots of options, Voxengo's MSED is good. Actually the JS stereo plugin can do this bit as well!
The idea is to rotate the stereo field so that the bit we want to remove is in the middle, then cut it out by reducing the mids gain. So the chain is:
rotate -22.5 degrees
trim mid -6 dB
rotate +45 degrees
trim mid -6 dB
rotate -22.5 degrees
makeup gain and final mid-side adjustment to taste.
A bit of mathematical analysis could probably reduce the number of steps involved; this is just a bunch of projecting vectors onto different bases. Even in this form it probably wouldn't be that much work to turn it into a JS plugin!
I tried this out with a sequence synth notes panned to different locations, and while I wouldn't say the result was totally independent control of the in-between-positions I was able to significantly emphasis the mids and sides. It did some interesting things to a commercial mix and did create a sense of "space", albeit a weird phase-y one. Definitely need to check the mono mix, as you are absolutely pulling out material from the track. Perhaps in moderation this could be handy in mastering; it might be more useful to boost the "in-betweens" as an alternative to cutting the overall stereo width.
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- KVRAF
- 7400 posts since 17 Feb, 2005
It would be possible to do something with a dynamics processor like a gate. Simply gate both the mid and side separately, and when the signal strength is too low then it will focus the other channel, possibly, or it might mute both channels.
I don't think it's possible to separate stereo elements like the way you described without a FFT kind of process. And I don't know if that would work either as there may still be phase cancellations.
I don't think it's possible to separate stereo elements like the way you described without a FFT kind of process. And I don't know if that would work either as there may still be phase cancellations.
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- KVRAF
- 4590 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
Mid and side signals are difference between left and right channel. Thus difference between mid and side signals ARE left and right channel.
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/
So what you ask for doesn't make much sense mathematically.
Just amke sure the signal is not mono and apply mid-side plugin to increase side component. ALternatively you cna apply some effects different on mid and side channel, but this is a BAD idea, since track will then sound very different in stereo and mono.
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/
So what you ask for doesn't make much sense mathematically.
Just amke sure the signal is not mono and apply mid-side plugin to increase side component. ALternatively you cna apply some effects different on mid and side channel, but this is a BAD idea, since track will then sound very different in stereo and mono.
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Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4710 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
Thanks everyone for your insightful replies - still curious about this.
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- KVRian
- 641 posts since 26 May, 2008 from Iceland.
Use something like Voxengo MSED then try, delaying the side signal by a few milliseconds, different saturation on each channel, reverb on either or different verbs on both, eq the side's differently, there are loads of possibilities.
"People are stupid" Gegard Mousasi.
