Christian Contemporary Production Question

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kiTy_rBtSk

Christian metal legends Stryper's massive MTV hit, from their 3rd album "In God We Trust" (1988).
Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

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Okay, I've been listening to Mercy Me and Casting Crowns for the last couple of days, which are two basic Christian Rock bands.

In layman's terms, this is what I'm hearing. Mind you, I have no idea how to get to this, but this is what my ears hear.

1. Drums bass and vocals dead center of the mix. This seems to be the glue that holds tha track together. In some cases the drums are up front more than others but in most cases they seem to be in the background and just barely audible. Vocals are mostly dry, sometimes appears to be double tracked or chorused. Can't really tell. Sometimes they're so dry they sound like they haven't been processed at all. Bass transient seems to be almost gone. All I really hear is like a low steady drown. There are certainly no sharp attacks, like with a slap bass, on any of these tracks.

2. Guitars seem to be panned left and right but not hard panning. More like the guitar was sidechained or parallel compressed.

3. Synths and Orchestra, strings, etc. are huge and yet don't cover up the vocals. So I'm guessing all the conflicting frequencies are EQ'd out.

4. Overall sound is huge, especially during the chorus.

This is what I'm hearing. Having said that, this appears to be common throughout rock and pop music today. So producing Christian Contemporary doesn't seem to be any different from any other genre that is basically "make the damn thing as loud as you can" which I assume is taking the master and just compressing the crap out of it while bringing up the input gain.

If I am essentially on the money or at least in the ball park, is there anybody here who actually knows how to produce stuff like this who can share their production tips? I know everybody is so secretive about all this and the attitude around here is essentially "go figure it out for yourself" but I'd really appreciate somebody who actually doesn't mind sharing what they know about this specific kind of music production.

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Aloysius wrote:Christian metal legends Stryper's massive MTV hit, from their 3rd album "In God We Trust" (1988).
Why bother with Stryper when there is Aaron Arkaway :shrug:

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JunSev wrote:
dayjob wrote:
wagtunes wrote:7 months later I am actually going to start this project. I will be listening to every Christian Contemporary track that I can get my hands on as reference.

why? i mean.. if you've heard one you've heard them all. they all do the same things. it's like the super commercial sheen on modern country music meant for radio play. it's a formula.. they all do it. it's not a secret.

it's essentially the same music. add a touch of church hymns to modern country pop and you're about there.

just do the most safe predictable acceptable by the masses type of producing that the lowest common denominator of music listener is capable of relating to and you'll be right in the wheel house. but if that fails just squash every track, boost the mids and cover it up when the priest has sex with children.
this is very dark and exaggerated, independently of his beliefs, not all Christians are from the Catholic Church or do all sort of abomination like that.

the same as diferent ideologies, no because Germany, Russia or other nations in the past has committed war crimes are the same now a days (independently and individually of persons), not all communist are really atheist (believe it or not), not all patriots loves war, those are just some examples.
it was hilarious when i was drunk

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dayjob wrote:
JunSev wrote:
dayjob wrote:
wagtunes wrote:7 months later I am actually going to start this project. I will be listening to every Christian Contemporary track that I can get my hands on as reference.

why? i mean.. if you've heard one you've heard them all. they all do the same things. it's like the super commercial sheen on modern country music meant for radio play. it's a formula.. they all do it. it's not a secret.

it's essentially the same music. add a touch of church hymns to modern country pop and you're about there.

just do the most safe predictable acceptable by the masses type of producing that the lowest common denominator of music listener is capable of relating to and you'll be right in the wheel house. but if that fails just squash every track, boost the mids and cover it up when the priest has sex with children.
this is very dark and exaggerated, independently of his beliefs, not all Christians are from the Catholic Church or do all sort of abomination like that.

the same as diferent ideologies, no because Germany, Russia or other nations in the past has committed war crimes are the same now a days (independently and individually of persons), not all communist are really atheist (believe it or not), not all patriots loves war, those are just some examples.
it was hilarious when i was drunk

It still is, best thread ever. I think that the key to getting a big part of that sound is Omnisphere. I don't think I'd use much of anything else TBH, maybe add a little more reverb on the tail end.

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ghettosynth wrote:
dayjob wrote:
JunSev wrote:
dayjob wrote:
wagtunes wrote:7 months later I am actually going to start this project. I will be listening to every Christian Contemporary track that I can get my hands on as reference.

why? i mean.. if you've heard one you've heard them all. they all do the same things. it's like the super commercial sheen on modern country music meant for radio play. it's a formula.. they all do it. it's not a secret.

it's essentially the same music. add a touch of church hymns to modern country pop and you're about there.

just do the most safe predictable acceptable by the masses type of producing that the lowest common denominator of music listener is capable of relating to and you'll be right in the wheel house. but if that fails just squash every track, boost the mids and cover it up when the priest has sex with children.
this is very dark and exaggerated, independently of his beliefs, not all Christians are from the Catholic Church or do all sort of abomination like that.

the same as diferent ideologies, no because Germany, Russia or other nations in the past has committed war crimes are the same now a days (independently and individually of persons), not all communist are really atheist (believe it or not), not all patriots loves war, those are just some examples.
it was hilarious when i was drunk

It still is, best thread ever. I think that the key to getting a big part of that sound is Omnisphere. I don't think I'd use much of anything else TBH, maybe add a little more reverb on the tail end.
Okay, you know what? Now it's stopped being funny. I'm trying to get some serious help here and, as I've always claimed, KVR, for the most part, doesn't give a crap about helping anybody.

Maybe it's time to just lock this up.

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wagtunes wrote: Okay, you know what? Now it's stopped being funny. I'm trying to get some serious help here and, as I've always claimed, KVR, for the most part, doesn't give a crap about helping anybody.

Maybe it's time to just lock this up.
Might be, WWJD?

Or, you could chill out a bit, people are going to have some fun with this. Christian pop is a hilarious genre, I'm sure that you knew that going in. I really want to hear this album when you get done. Don't forget to include a rap tune, like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa0EtdtPi8w

Yes, the sirens are necessary.

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ghettosynth wrote:
wagtunes wrote: Okay, you know what? Now it's stopped being funny. I'm trying to get some serious help here and, as I've always claimed, KVR, for the most part, doesn't give a crap about helping anybody.

Maybe it's time to just lock this up.
Might be, WWJD?

Or, you could chill out a bit, people are going to have some fun with this. Christian pop is a hilarious genre, I'm sure that you knew that going in. I really want to hear this album when you get done. Don't forget to include a rap tune, like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa0EtdtPi8w

Yes, the sirens are necessary.
The problem is, nothing is going to get done if I don't get the production tricks down. I've listened to more CC these last 2 days than I have in a lifetime. I know what I hear but I'd be guessing as far as how to go about achieving those results, IF even possible. Because I don't know what equipment is being used. I don't know how many overdubs are being used. I don't know if you've got a dry signal overlayed with a processed signal. I don't know what kind of vocal processing is being done. I mean I am going into this about as blind as I can. So I figured MAYBE if somebody here has actually DONE stuff like this MAYBE they could give me a few pointers. I mean professional musicians DO come here, right? Or am I dreaming and we're all just a bunch of hobby producers?

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Kinda reluctant to wade into this, but here are a few points that may help. Some have already been said (written), but it's nice to put them all in a place. I'm writing this as if you were a n00b, so that real n00bz can read it; I don't mean any offense or denigration of your skills!

First, decide which parts are the most important, then build your mix on it.

High-pass everything except kick and bass. Take the filter up the frequencies until you notice it, then lower it a bit. That gives room for the kick and bass, which opens up its own can o' worms.

Compress everything. A lot.

After compression, EQ. This gives much more tonally consistent results. Carve away great honking chunks wherever things conflict. You'll need to make decisions about which part is more important -- if it is, it stays. This keeps things nicely clear. It's an art; be prepared to spend a lot of time learning how to do it. Put some sparkle on everything, but be careful not to have the sparkles step all over each other -- by which I mean, don't add the same frequencies to everything. Each part should get its own space in the panorama.

Yes, high-pass then compress, then EQ. This gives you maximum control.

Use a wide stereo field, which can be achieved many ways. Maybe by panning, but you often get better results by mid/side techniques: cut the bass in the sides, maybe boost it a bit in the center channel (where the kick and bass need to be). Be careful to have a balance; it your right channel has a bunch of bright things, try to put some in the left channel.

Put some reverb and/or delay on some things. You'll have to experiment to find what works on what part; echo-type effects can make things sound distant and small, but they can also make them sound HUGE. More EQ can really help; distant things lose high frequencies more quickly then near things.

All of this should help your mix. The idea is to make everything present and focused, because everything matters in this kind of music. (Everybody has a voice, right?)

As for the mastering stage, I'm less certain. Still, you will want to correct for tonal balance -- highs, mids and lows. You might need to boost a bit in the upper range, and cut the really high upper range.

Add some compression to the whole mix -- you don't necessarily want it LOUD, but you do want everything present and stable. Compress until you notice it unpleasantly, then back it off a bit. To me, it sounds as if a lot of this style of music uses VCA-style compressors, rather than opto or mu -- you get more control, which can sound artificial, but maybe it's better to think of it as music perfected.

Then add a bit of echo (reverb, delay, whatever sounds better to the particular mix) to everything; this is strictly to taste. I prefer a subtle, room-ish reverb, but that's just me. Feel free to add more if you want it to sound like a band/choir from on high -- just be aware that it's easy to overdo it.

And some general suggestions. Don't work too long at a time, because your ears will tire and make you to make lousy decisions. Make a few variations of what you're doing, and try each of them out in differing environments. If you find yourself chasing your tail because you can't tell if having the kick up or down a half-dB, take a break! Be respectful of the music, the musicians, the process and, well, everything. If you find yourself angry and want to strangle the bass player, take a break. Notice a theme here? :hihi:

I'm no master at any of this (except taking breaks!), but at least I know it's good advice. I hope my post helps.
Wait... loot _then_ burn? D'oh!

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Jafo wrote:Kinda reluctant to wade into this, but here are a few points that may help. Some have already been said (written), but it's nice to put them all in a place. I'm writing this as if you were a n00b, so that real n00bz can read it; I don't mean any offense or denigration of your skills!

First, decide which parts are the most important, then build your mix on it.

Snip...

I'm no master at any of this (except taking breaks!), but at least I know it's good advice. I hope my post helps.
Thank you. You have NO idea how much this helps. I do have just one question because I can't seem to find a good tutorial that clearly demonstrates it.

For the stereo, when you talk about mid/side, I assume you're talking about using the compressor side chain function (I use Neutron) correct? I'm not all that experienced with using this technique. Can you go into a brief explanation of how exactly to pull this off or, if not, direct me to a tutorial that you're aware of that actually explains the process clearly and accurately?

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wagtunes wrote:For the stereo, when you talk about mid/side, I assume you're talking about using the compressor side chain function (I use Neutron) correct? I'm not all that experienced with using this technique. Can you go into a brief explanation of how exactly to pull this off or, if not, direct me to a tutorial that you're aware of that actually explains the process clearly and accurately?
Basically, instead of encoding info as left/right, you're converting it to mid/side by means of a sum and difference of the left and right. You could also record it in the first place by using two mics. Bootsy's typically excellent explanation may help. Universal Audio has a nice tutorial on how to use it when recording. It's also in the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement manual.

Anyway, you end up with a mid channel in the center, and the side channel becomes the left and right edges. You can then process each of these new channels differently, especially by EQ: the center channel can perhaps boost the lows and cut the highs, while the side channel can cut the lows and boost the highs. I mostly just use Voxengo's Overtone GEQ for fast results, but there are other EQs with that capability (Variety of Sound's Baxter, for example).

There are other tricks you can do with mid/side -- maybe adding reverb/delay to the side and not to the mid. (I'm still trying to get the hang of that, alas. Life is too short!) There are plugs that can convert left/right to/from mid/side, but I'm playing with Voxengo's Mid/Side lately. (I'm really not a Voxengo fanboy: it's just that they were pretty much my first VST discovery. It really helps that they're useful, though.)

Some people like a stereo widener for some quick and dirty results that kinda sound the same as mid/side EQ. They typically just delay (or add delay to) the left or right channel to make it sound different from the other, but the new phase relationships can change enough that the result sounds a bit weird when collapsed to mono, like in a club. Mid/side doesn't have that problem at all (since it works by a sum and difference of the original channels). Then again, some wideners use both techniques, letting you center the lows and spread the highs; I think Sanford has one, but that's probably just my hazy recollection. (Mono compatibility is one of the many gremlins running around in my brain, so I avoid wideners.)

Whew. I think my powers of explanation are fading, and I just realized I'm spending my Saturday night writing. Not that I live an exciting life: I'll probably just doze off to some YouTube as usual. :hihi:
Wait... loot _then_ burn? D'oh!

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Hunh, I really ought to look at all my open tabs. One of these had a few suggestions for mid/side trickery. Cool.
Wait... loot _then_ burn? D'oh!

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Very good info, Jafo. Thanks for sharing.

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