Reason 10 incoming

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chk071 wrote:IMO, the biggest mistake they made is actually listening to the people... at least the people who are never satisfied, and always expect a product to be more than it originally was intended to. I think, they should have concentrated on the basic application, keep it closed, and step by step update the included devices, hire some really skilled DSP guys, do a Thor v2, which is on one level with Spire, or whatever similar is out there, do a big GUI overhaul, even implement resizing capabilities, purge the program, so that it keeps things simple, like they were in version 5, step by step improve the fx, because, frankly, those could be better too, and maybe bring some more functionality to the sequencer itself. Frankly, the way i always read it, on Reason user forums, there weren't too many which really claimed that they NEED VST support desperately, and Reason always was more of a all-in-one-box solution. I remember when it came out, the biggest appeal, and what they most marketed it for was a "whole studio for less than a hundredth of the price of a whole studio" or similar. And THAT'S what Reason always has been about for me. Unfortunately, that concept was somehow left along the way, or the developers didn't consequently followed it, so Reason ran in a dead end (for me). I believe, that, even if they only had released Thor v2 at some point, there would have been a much more tempting reason for people who moved on to stick to Reason. I don't want to claim that a lot of people DID move on, but, some surely did.
I might be able to offer some insight on that perspective, because I'm one of the users that may have moved on if they hadn't introduced audio recording, pitch editing, and VST support. I've been using Reason since 1.0, and although I always used a secondary DAW for the audio recording part, VST, etc - I've never been a fan of having to ReWire. So, I can attest - at least from my perspective - that adding features like these and reinventing Reason as an actual DAW (instead of just a collection of plugins that happened to have a sequencer) - was necessary to cater to us long-term users... and entice others who stayed away because those features were missing.

I think Propellerhead are still in a unique situation, and it's only gotten more complicated due to the past product course change, which garnered more users, and in return - brought the ire of more people at their doorsteps when X, Y, and Z feature isn't implemented at every major version update.

I dunno - I'm glad they took it to where it is today. Are there a metric shit ton of features I'd rather have, and rather have NOW compared to 2-5 new devices and bunch of sample content? Absolutely. But it's not that big of a deal, IMHO. I've got Studio One and access to plenty of other stuff in the meantime.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite | Reason 12 | i7 3770 @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro| Akai MPC Live II & Akai Force | Roland System 8 | Roland TR-8 with 7x7 Expansion | Roland TB-3 | Roland MX-1 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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What is wrong with this company?

Props have FINALLY, begrudgingly accepted the fact that the majority of buyers are only interested in Reason if it becomes a legitimate DAW, which is why they caved on VST. I love that they finally came to their senses here.

But... a legitimate DAW needs a competent sequencer. I was thinking of mixing something in Reason recently, until I realized that I can't even make my tracks as large as I want to. Nope, Props have decided that I have three size choices, and that's all that I need. Nope. Sorry. I'll just stay in Studio One and Cubase. You can't even CROSSFADE between audio clips in Reason!!! There is no proper crossfade function...!

How on earth do they come to the conclusion that the improvements they need to make are in the area of included instruments? WTF? Their website actually has the audacity to call it "The Biggest Update Ever". Adding more instruments and FX......... IS... NOT... AN... UPDATE... TO... REASON!!!!!!!

Many DAW users could care less about the native instruments/fx in their DAW. Now that Props is open to VST, Reason users no longer have to care about the quality/breadth of native instruments/fx. How can the smart people at Props not see this?

Fix your crappy, limited, YEARS BEHIND sequencer! Stop worrying about the toys in your rack and fix your sequencer!

It's as if this company WANTS to lose money and enjoys being ridiculed, mocked and laughed at.

Business advice for Propellerhead:

1. Promise permanent support for existing RE's and kill the platform to third parties, since there is now little motivation for developers to make both an RE version and a VST version of the same plugin. NO ONE is going to buy the RE version of some plugin, that they can ONLY use in Reason, when they can buy the regular VST version of that plugin and use it in Reason, and... all of their other DAWS. Third party RE's were just a desperate last attempt to not succumb to VST's. That's a moot point now. Reserve the RE standard for Propellerhead made, very Reason specific things (see #4).

2. Concentrate on sequencer improvements ONLY for the next couple of upgrades.

3. If Props want to continue making instruments and FX, make them as VST and sell them across the board, even to people who don't own Reason.

4. Make more models of other renowned mixing desks (like the ssl it now has) and sell those as RE's.

5. See if a serious company like Spectrasonics wants to buy Reason and turn it into a real DAW.

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@ EnochLight: Fair enough. :tu: My perspective is surely not the "end all", or even a perspective from a power user. Rather from someone who always occasionally gave it a go, and followed up the development since pretty much the first version. Especially VST support, i wouldn't have expected to be an essential thing, for long term users.

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IRBY wrote:What is wrong with this company?

Props have FINALLY, begrudgingly accepted the fact that the majority of buyers are only interested in Reason if it becomes a legitimate DAW, which is why they caved on VST. I love that they finally came to their senses here.

But... a legitimate DAW needs a competent sequencer.
That is one of the major points why i found implementing VST's to be flawed. Now they have to compete with DAW's, which are light years ahead in terms of VST implementation, and sequencer capabilities. It's just doesn't make sense to me.

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IRBY wrote:But... a legitimate DAW needs a competent sequencer. I was thinking of mixing something in Reason recently, until I realized that I can't even make my tracks as large as I want to. Nope, Props have decided that I have three size choices, and that's all that I need. Nope. Sorry. I'll just stay in Studio One and Cubase. You can't even CROSSFADE between audio clips in Reason!!! There is no proper crossfade function...!
You'll get no objections from me when you say Reason's sequencer needs more features, but I need to point out - there's more than 3 sizes for the track sizes. Or are you referring to the waveform zoom in the lower left of the main transport bar? These are two separate things.

Also, while cross-fading could be easier (and have more features by a mile), joining two clips and cross-fading them in comp mode isn't terribly difficult.

* And yes, I realize this needs to be a lot easier!
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite | Reason 12 | i7 3770 @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro| Akai MPC Live II & Akai Force | Roland System 8 | Roland TR-8 with 7x7 Expansion | Roland TB-3 | Roland MX-1 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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chk071 wrote:
IRBY wrote:What is wrong with this company?

Props have FINALLY, begrudgingly accepted the fact that the majority of buyers are only interested in Reason if it becomes a legitimate DAW, which is why they caved on VST. I love that they finally came to their senses here.

But... a legitimate DAW needs a competent sequencer.
That is one of the major points why i found implementing VST's to be flawed. Now they have to compete with DAW's, which are light years ahead in terms of VST implementation, and sequencer capabilities. It's just doesn't make sense to me.
I heard that they are hurting financially, and that the ONLY reason they relented on VST was that they have recently accepted money from outside investors, who must have pressured them to do so. Outside investors just want a return on their investment. They don't care that Propellerhead has some quirky, desperate need to think of themselves as "different", even at the expense of the companies financials. The number of people who have given up on Reason BECAUSE it's not enough like a standard DAW is HUGE! The problem is, they should have put in audio recording and VST support YEARS AGO, when there was still respect for the company. By this point, gobs of folks who outgrew the limitations of Reason have already long moved on to real DAWS!

It's like Propellerhead wants to sit the fence and have it both ways. Reason is a real DAW... but it's not, all at the same time! They want to have it both ways. They want the MUCH larger market share available to being a real DAW, but they still have this childish desire to be perceived as a totally unconventional rebel. Propellerhead is like the young adult who wants a real, grown up job (and the money that comes with it) but they don't want to stop dressing goth and take the bull ring out of their septum. What they fail to realize is that most users don't see their intransigence on being a legitimate DAW as being "different" and "cool". Most people just see Reason as... a lame DAW, that's greatly lacking and many years behind the others.

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EnochLight wrote:
IRBY wrote:But... a legitimate DAW needs a competent sequencer. I was thinking of mixing something in Reason recently, until I realized that I can't even make my tracks as large as I want to. Nope, Props have decided that I have three size choices, and that's all that I need. Nope. Sorry. I'll just stay in Studio One and Cubase. You can't even CROSSFADE between audio clips in Reason!!! There is no proper crossfade function...!
You'll get no objections from me when you say Reason's sequencer needs more features, but I need to point out - there's more than 3 sizes for the track sizes. Or are you referring to the waveform zoom in the lower left of the main transport bar? These are two separate things.

I just tried to grab the bottom of a track in Reason and stretch it... and it can't be done in Reason. This is something that people have come to expect to do in ANY DAW. You are correct, I have more than three sizes. I can choose between SIX, using the magnifying glass icons. This is NOT acceptable for real work. I do however, only see THREE waveform size options. Also, unacceptable. It's pathetic really.

Also, I could EASILY and QUICLY crossfade in Studio One in it's FIRST VERSION, by hitting "crossfade". Reason is now in it's TENTH iteration and still doesn't have this STANDARD feature. Outrageous!!!

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I'm not really a big fan of this new sample player, where it looks like they've broken three types of sounds and made three devices, which imo should have been just one.

More stuff to scroll through initially to find the device. You'd still have to scroll to find stuff with an all-in-one sample player, but it's getting messy trying to find devices in the browser, which needs a fix to make more efficient.

I can see Propellerhead strategy though. Three devices is a better sell than one.

And future upgrades can add yet more of these individual sampler devices to plump up the upgrade offering.

It's not a bad strategy for Propellerhead. Unfortunately we can see through it and way more individual samplers with cute skins is gonna be a pain in the butt to navigate.

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EnochLight wrote:I might be able to offer some insight on that perspective, because I'm one of the users that may have moved on if they hadn't introduced audio recording, pitch editing, and VST support. I've been using Reason since 1.0, and although I always used a secondary DAW for the audio recording part, VST, etc - I've never been a fan of having to ReWire. So, I can attest - at least from my perspective - that adding features like these and reinventing Reason as an actual DAW (instead of just a collection of plugins that happened to have a sequencer) - was necessary to cater to us long-term users... and entice others who stayed away because those features were missing.

I think Propellerhead are still in a unique situation, and it's only gotten more complicated due to the past product course change, which garnered more users, and in return - brought the ire of more people at their doorsteps when X, Y, and Z feature isn't implemented at every major version update.
This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. I was one who loved using Reason for its instruments and workflow but I wasnt a fan of having to rewire into Protools(at the time) for audio recording and mixing. After audio recording was built in with the mixer I was more than happy to make reason a primary DAW. But I also recognize that were Reason users who had no interest in recording audio at all or were tied to another DAW and simply wanted the massive instrument suite that it was. With that said, I do feel like the software overall has matured a lot over the years and has become massively powerful as a full production environment. There will always be features we want as with any of the other DAW's (go check out those threads for anyone that needs proof of it) but as of version 9.5, there is very little I need to go elsewhere for as far as production work these days.
Windows 10 PC. Reason. Cubase. Waveform. Reaper. Studio One Pro. Epiphone Les Paul Pro II. Nektar Panorama t4. Yamaha RBX Bass. Faderport 2. Eris E5 Monitors. SSL2 Interface. Audient Evo 4. AKG C214. Aston Origin. MXL 990.

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dear Propellerhead please watch this and begin to think on it ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEhPoZQ2VFc

and stop developing everything except the core product in next 5 versions (custom keybinding, folder tracks, dockable editors etc. etc. etc.), same way as Steinberg did it with Cubase which has astonishingly brilliant UI now, don't get it why u need developing plugins after u dropped the close ecosystem concept so +1 to video above
Last edited by xbitz on Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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Seriously, the Reason Fanboi crowd are such babies. So this release is focused on new content, it's a move that's LONG OVERDUE, since there's been precious few additions to the native suite since what... version 6? I'm not including those rubbish 'Players' because they, like Audiomatic, are silly toys rather than serious devices aimed at musicians. From what little has been revealed, v10 is going to contain two killer synths. That Grain device looks like one hell of an instruments, and I for one will be looking forward to loading my own sound recordings into it, for some crazy manipulation. At least that's what I believe it's meant to do.

The spoilt little Reason babies have such sort memories. Between version 9 and 9.5, the single biggest, the most epic, and the most requested feature was added. VST HOSTING.HELLOOOOOOOOO DO YOU REMEMBER, VST HOSTING....... IT WAS ONLY A FEW MONTHS AGO. And of course, for the most ardent of devotees who would have already upgraded to 9, as it was FREE.

Never before has there been such a clear path to take for the roughly 50% of Reason users, ie for those who stay current. YOu people DO NOT NEED TO UPGRADE TO 10 ! It won't kill you NOT to have the latest version, it won't make you any less cool. Put your teenage ego aside and ask yourself "Do I really need these new devices", or maybe "Would I buy these devices in a bundle if they were $129". If the answer is no, then don't pull the trigger. Simple. You've had some AMAZING and FREE upgrade advancements to the platform in the past year that could have been a v10 update in themselves. Grow up, and make some decisions based on logical outcomes rather that "I want I want I want".

In fact, the LESS people that upgrade to v10, the louder the message will be to Props that they need to pull out some significant point updates to win you guys over. Ultimately you will be doing yourselves a favour by refraining for a while.

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IRBY wrote: 1. Promise permanent support for existing RE's and kill the platform to third parties, since there is now little motivation for developers to make both an RE version and a VST version of the same plugin. NO ONE is going to buy the RE version of some plugin, that they can ONLY use in Reason, when they can buy the regular VST version of that plugin and use it in Reason, and... all of their other DAWS. Third party RE's were just a desperate last attempt to not succumb to VST's. That's a moot point now. Reserve the RE standard for Propellerhead made, very Reason specific things (see #4).
I disagree, and I'm not a Reason fanboi. Yes, VSTs in Reason are great, but, the strength of the reason platform is the hardware like modularity. I actually agree that having VSTs in Reason allows the RE platform devs to focus on tools that leverage its strengths.

One thing that hampers the RE market is that individuals can't sell them. Props should adapt the market like Amazon does to allow individuals to sell their REs in the marketplace. "Buy XYZ RE New for $99 or used from $49." They can take the higher of a fixed fee or percentage for each sale to make it worth their while. This will put pressure on RE providers to create tools that better fit the market, as useless junk will be regularly sold off with the price reflecting the true demand for the product.
5. See if a serious company like Spectrasonics wants to buy Reason and turn it into a real DAW.
LOL!

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KarmaShaman wrote:In fact, the LESS people that upgrade to v10, the louder the message will be to Props that they need to pull out some significant point updates to win you guys over. Ultimately you will be doing yourselves a favour by refraining for a while.
I never thought I would agree with you, but in this case I actually do!
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

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it's not about upgrading, it's about the direction to where Props is going, now it's completely wrong
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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xbitz wrote:it's not about upgrading, it's about the direction to where Props is going, now it's completely wrong
Whatever direction they are choosing it will be wrong, because it's only the people that aren't satisfied that are making their voices heard.
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

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