808 kick with bass
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 172 posts since 15 Apr, 2016 from Germany
I can't get an 808 kick to work well with a baseline in similar frequencies. I hear examples of it elsewhere but it's just not working for me!
An example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgGOGx-5Ii0
The kick sounds pretty solid and present in the mix (and 808-like to me, possibly with a transient layered on top to give it extra punch)
Then at about 1:25 the bass line comes in and it sounds equally as strong and 'bottom-end' seemingly without compromising the sound of the kick. What tends to happen to me is when I add a bassline with a kick like this, the kick loses its presence and the bassline is just... lost, especially as you try lower notes its like the pitch information is just... not there...
I have an example of my own track that has this exact problem. Worked on the bass for ages and ultimately haven't been happy with it.
https://soundcloud.com/fallacy-845675016/by-the-lake
ANY tips on the matter would be greatly appreciated!
An example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgGOGx-5Ii0
The kick sounds pretty solid and present in the mix (and 808-like to me, possibly with a transient layered on top to give it extra punch)
Then at about 1:25 the bass line comes in and it sounds equally as strong and 'bottom-end' seemingly without compromising the sound of the kick. What tends to happen to me is when I add a bassline with a kick like this, the kick loses its presence and the bassline is just... lost, especially as you try lower notes its like the pitch information is just... not there...
I have an example of my own track that has this exact problem. Worked on the bass for ages and ultimately haven't been happy with it.
https://soundcloud.com/fallacy-845675016/by-the-lake
ANY tips on the matter would be greatly appreciated!
- KVRAF
- 1770 posts since 23 Sep, 2004 from Kocmoc
Video is not available, but as usual when we work on 808 + deep bass, we use a light sidechain to kick the bass with kick, and eq on either bass or bd .. depending.
So what I'm trying to say, we dont know it before hand, we try which sounds better. On your track I hear the basspad is the main problem, it defeats the bassdrum. I'd prolly had sidechained it with the bassdrum in this instance. Also does it need to be so high in volume in that region? Choices...
Nice sounding tune btw.
So what I'm trying to say, we dont know it before hand, we try which sounds better. On your track I hear the basspad is the main problem, it defeats the bassdrum. I'd prolly had sidechained it with the bassdrum in this instance. Also does it need to be so high in volume in that region? Choices...
Nice sounding tune btw.
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https://www.youtube.com/@softknees/videos Music & Demoscene
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- KVRAF
- 12554 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
One thing people probably don't realize is that our pitch resolution in the low end is absolutely horrible. It doesn't make sense to compare your resolving capability on a pure steady sine and then just assume that applies to pitch sweeps or mixtures of frequencies.
By simply cutting one element out with the right envelope/depth (sidechain compression, gate) you won't be able to actually hear that part is missing. It'll just sound smooth and your brain will assume the sounds were blending together. So this is why it doesn't make sense to try to just listen "use your ears" to figure out what is happening with a well produced track, because that track might take advantage of methods which can trick your ears into thinking you're hearing what isn't physically possible.
https://soundcloud.com/aciddose-1/pooipel
Can you hear the bass disappearing?
See the gray dots? The ones that aren't actually there?
By simply cutting one element out with the right envelope/depth (sidechain compression, gate) you won't be able to actually hear that part is missing. It'll just sound smooth and your brain will assume the sounds were blending together. So this is why it doesn't make sense to try to just listen "use your ears" to figure out what is happening with a well produced track, because that track might take advantage of methods which can trick your ears into thinking you're hearing what isn't physically possible.
https://soundcloud.com/aciddose-1/pooipel
Can you hear the bass disappearing?
See the gray dots? The ones that aren't actually there?
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- KVRAF
- 7383 posts since 17 Feb, 2005
There's nothing wrong with the bass shadowing the kick, they are "mixed" and that's what gives it texture. The compromise here could be described as a lack of fidelity in the subbass, it's a little more washy but that's not even a bad thing.
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- KVRAF
- 2448 posts since 12 Sep, 2004
The obvious thing is the bassline in the reference track is offbeat from the solid 4's of the kick. Most bass notes are on the "&", with one or two anticipated either on the "e" (16th note before next quarter) or the last not of a 8th note triplet group... long story short, the bass notes and kick notes are largely offset from each other, so the main overlaps are on the edges of the respective kick and bass sounds, not so much on the main transient, if that makes sense...
Also, the kick really has a solid top end (upper frequencies) which helps it to stand out above everything. Even if at any instant the kick low and sub frequencies are masked, the overall transient is very present.
Also, the bass sound is your typical "lately bass", and doesn't sound very subbass-boomy... like more heavy low-mids than anything else. Listening on pods, so only hearing what I hear...
You have some obvious click in your kick as well, along with the obvious sub bass, but maybe not as much click/presence as the reference track... by comparison your kick is more "scooped", I think... just for.. er... kicks... try a broader EQ on the top end of the kick... like 6dB high-pass starting at maybe 400Hz... I think you (or your drumsynth) might be scooping more of the mids than that...
Also... can't decide if I want to hear another +2dB of your kick (just the kick)... I think I do...
Also, the kick really has a solid top end (upper frequencies) which helps it to stand out above everything. Even if at any instant the kick low and sub frequencies are masked, the overall transient is very present.
Also, the bass sound is your typical "lately bass", and doesn't sound very subbass-boomy... like more heavy low-mids than anything else. Listening on pods, so only hearing what I hear...
You have some obvious click in your kick as well, along with the obvious sub bass, but maybe not as much click/presence as the reference track... by comparison your kick is more "scooped", I think... just for.. er... kicks... try a broader EQ on the top end of the kick... like 6dB high-pass starting at maybe 400Hz... I think you (or your drumsynth) might be scooping more of the mids than that...
Also... can't decide if I want to hear another +2dB of your kick (just the kick)... I think I do...
You need to limit that rez, bro.
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 172 posts since 15 Apr, 2016 from Germany
Thanks all for the feedback! I'm trying techniques from what I've learned from your analysis. I didn't realise the bass in Wax Stag's Summit is indeed dodging around the kick until it was made obvious, which gives it a bit of a chance to make a point of its own.
What I've also tried is to use bass synth sounds (whether a preset or something of my own) with harmonics above the low frequencies (as I assume the Lately Bass has) but cut frequencies above the kick, though, unless you use a smooth curve on the cut, it tends not to sound very strained. I'll keep experimenting...
In my track the volume tends to get louder as more layers come in and I think that tends to take away from the bass and kick as, I suppose, the speaker is 'moving' for all the other frequencies and has less dynamic range to accentuate the lows. I'll do some more comparisons to similar tracks as I think ultimately the bass and kick are far louder than anything else in tracks that I tend to enjoy...
What I've also tried is to use bass synth sounds (whether a preset or something of my own) with harmonics above the low frequencies (as I assume the Lately Bass has) but cut frequencies above the kick, though, unless you use a smooth curve on the cut, it tends not to sound very strained. I'll keep experimenting...
In my track the volume tends to get louder as more layers come in and I think that tends to take away from the bass and kick as, I suppose, the speaker is 'moving' for all the other frequencies and has less dynamic range to accentuate the lows. I'll do some more comparisons to similar tracks as I think ultimately the bass and kick are far louder than anything else in tracks that I tend to enjoy...