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pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12317 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:43 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

IncarnateX wrote:Drop the VAs. We cannot afford the CPU power to take them beyond their current state anyway. Make us some fine romplers instead with loads of features.


If that works for you... great!

Me, I like the playability of synthesis... samples do not pitchbend well... if you want to tweak in realtime, samples do not work well...
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plexuss
KVRian
 
1344 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Postby plexuss; Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:19 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

Here are some music example. Music I wrote and recorded.

This track is mostly analogue: 2 minimoogs, 2 prophet 5's, Pro One. Non-digital: D70, K5000. Drums are a mix of TR808 and TR727. Sequenced with Notator, mixed into analogue direct to 15ips 1/4" Ampex 456 with dBx NR then transcribed to DAT. c1992

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/featherless-flight

This one is completely digital, ITB, modern plugins, 96/24 render:

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/st ... on-epsilon

You decide. It's all good to me.
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IncarnateX
KVRAF
 
2762 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:00 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

pdxindy wrote:Me, I like the playability of synthesis... samples do not pitchbend well... if you want to tweak in realtime, samples do not work well...


Eh? Is that supposed to be an universal fact or are you just expressing your very own and rather unique opinion? I have a good deal of soft- and hardware romplers (e.g. Roland Fantom G6, Korg Legacy M1 and Wavestation) and they all pitch bend fine, thank you. If you insist that this should be the downfall of romplers, I am willing to post some examples, so you can explain the problem to me :tu:
Woodgardens
KVRist
 
37 posts since 18 Oct, 2017

Postby Woodgardens; Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:08 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

@plexuss

A matter of distinction. The first track sounds 80s/90s and the second one not.

By the way, my cat didn't react to the first one, but the moment I started the second one, his ears came up. Simply means he finds the sound annoying.
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12317 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:49 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

IncarnateX wrote:
pdxindy wrote:Me, I like the playability of synthesis... samples do not pitchbend well... if you want to tweak in realtime, samples do not work well...


Eh? Is that supposed to be an universal fact or are you just expressing your very own and rather unique opinion? I have a good deal of soft- and hardware romplers (e.g. Roland Fantom G6, Korg Legacy M1 and Wavestation) and they all pitch bend fine, thank you. If you insist that this should be the downfall of romplers, I am willing to post some examples, so you can explain the problem to me :tu:


yeah... I was not very clear about that. Using MPE controllers, it is more common to pitchbend more semitones and with different techniques such as doing note slides to multiple subsequent notes and not just a quick up and down. MPE controllers like the Rise and Linnstrument are more likely to reveal artifacts and a kind of unnatural tone depending on the preset and synth and type of sample.

and the second point... synthesis works better than samples for lots of realtime tweaking
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Chris-S
KVRAF
 
2300 posts since 10 Nov, 2013, from Germany

Postby Chris-S; Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:47 am Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

Woodgardens wrote:By the way, my cat didn't react to the first one, but the moment I started the second one, his ears came up. Simply means he finds the sound annoying.

Please do the Legend vs. Minimoog blindtest with him and let us know the result. :D
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IncarnateX
KVRAF
 
2762 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:12 am Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

pdxindy wrote:yeah... I was not very clear about that. Using MPE controllers, it is more common to pitchbend more semitones and with different techniques such as doing note slides to multiple subsequent notes and not just a quick up and down. MPE controllers like the Rise and Linnstrument are more likely to reveal artifacts and a kind of unnatural tone depending on the preset and synth and type of sample.


Don’t own any of these controllers, so I wouldn’t know but it sounds likely. However if you want to go the classic analog route, quick up and downs are usually what you got, if any at all. To me, the big downfall with romplers are bad digital filters. Used on samples these surely end up in meh-experiences quite often unless you do a lot of smart programming. But that is exactly what I think Syntronic makes up for. The filters may not be component modeled but I think they work better on the sampled waveforms that I would expect from a rompler. And yes, the cost is lesser editing/synthesis options, no free meals here.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
9597 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:31 am Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

IncarnateX wrote:Those who think they actually care have not heard a real analog classic beyond compressed Youtube vids and if they had they would probably be dissapointed. There is no magic, only sound characteristics that us old farts were primed to during the early days of electronic music and that is why we love them.


Plus, it's only the classics that stand apart. The majority of analogs are relatively static and plain, and don't have any more warmth, liveliness, etc. than the best software. I won't even throw an "IMO" on there because I believe it's measurable.

Personally, even being an old fart myself, I much prefer the sound of DIVA, Monark, LuSH-101, etc. over a Juno 60 or 106.
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Cinebient
KVRAF
 
2538 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:57 am Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

Woodgardens wrote:@plexuss

A matter of distinction. The first track sounds 80s/90s and the second one not.

By the way, my cat didn't react to the first one, but the moment I started the second one, his ears came up. Simply means he finds the sound annoying.


Great for a marketing campaign.....cat approved!
Sadly my cat is not in a mood today.
Scotty
KVRian
 
1305 posts since 22 Dec, 2002

Postby Scotty; Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:16 am Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

I'd say with the advent of the Townsend Lab Sphere microphone, component modeling and the incredible technology behind the Acoustica Audio (voltara kernals sp? - more capture than modelling) there are no significant gaps in analog modelling technology today.

A big part of the appeal of analog gear (to the proponents) is the commitment you make to setting levels and tweaking with knobs. You have a hands on experience with it and we form attachments that way. We also consider those "hand" created sounds special. The sonics may not be any better but the process in getting there may mean something substantitive.

That is not say you can't do the same thing with any softsynth. YOu spend time with it and manipulate it and come up with something that is yours and the attachment is the same. It is simply that touch is a powerful sense and analog typically requires more of it by design or limitation (you choose).

If a small degree of non linear distortion (whereby an oscilloscope is needed to detect the difference between analog and emulated), is a make or break deal for the track, it must be pretty unremarkable bit music.
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
9050 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:41 am Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

pdxindy wrote:
IncarnateX wrote:
pdxindy wrote:Me, I like the playability of synthesis... samples do not pitchbend well... if you want to tweak in realtime, samples do not work well...


Eh? Is that supposed to be an universal fact or are you just expressing your very own and rather unique opinion? I have a good deal of soft- and hardware romplers (e.g. Roland Fantom G6, Korg Legacy M1 and Wavestation) and they all pitch bend fine, thank you. If you insist that this should be the downfall of romplers, I am willing to post some examples, so you can explain the problem to me :tu:


yeah... I was not very clear about that. Using MPE controllers, it is more common to pitchbend more semitones and with different techniques such as doing note slides to multiple subsequent notes and not just a quick up and down. MPE controllers like the Rise and Linnstrument are more likely to reveal artifacts and a kind of unnatural tone depending on the preset and synth and type of sample.

and the second point... synthesis works better than samples for lots of realtime tweaking


Having mentioned that, Roli’s native instrument, Equator, relies heavily on samples. Not that I’d call Equator any gem in terms of analog modeling, but I never notice that it sounds unnatural when I’m slip-sliding around the Rise. I think if your sample bit depth and rate is high enough, you’ll be OK with artifacts from pitch bending. Off topic, I’m more confused as to why Roli bought FXpansion and yet, Strobe 2 remains MPE deaf.
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Cinebient
KVRAF
 
2538 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:12 am Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

zerocrossing wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
IncarnateX wrote:
pdxindy wrote:Me, I like the playability of synthesis... samples do not pitchbend well... if you want to tweak in realtime, samples do not work well...


Eh? Is that supposed to be an universal fact or are you just expressing your very own and rather unique opinion? I have a good deal of soft- and hardware romplers (e.g. Roland Fantom G6, Korg Legacy M1 and Wavestation) and they all pitch bend fine, thank you. If you insist that this should be the downfall of romplers, I am willing to post some examples, so you can explain the problem to me :tu:


yeah... I was not very clear about that. Using MPE controllers, it is more common to pitchbend more semitones and with different techniques such as doing note slides to multiple subsequent notes and not just a quick up and down. MPE controllers like the Rise and Linnstrument are more likely to reveal artifacts and a kind of unnatural tone depending on the preset and synth and type of sample.

and the second point... synthesis works better than samples for lots of realtime tweaking


Having mentioned that, Roli’s native instrument, Equator, relies heavily on samples. Not that I’d call Equator any gem in terms of analog modeling, but I never notice that it sounds unnatural when I’m slip-sliding around the Rise. I think if your sample bit depth and rate is high enough, you’ll be OK with artifacts from pitch bending. Off topic, I’m more confused as to why Roli bought FXpansion and yet, Strobe 2 remains MPE deaf.


Strobe 2 works fine with MPE.
Terrafractyl
KVRist
 
309 posts since 15 Nov, 2005, from Melbourne Australia

Postby Terrafractyl; Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:41 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

Yeah but it is such an underwhelming synth in my opinion. It has all the options and normally I quite like synths like that but every time i open it and start making noises i have an instant 'ugh' reaction. Now i have a Roli seaboard I gave it another go last week and really wanted to like it... but still no. All of fxpansions synths do that for me though so yeah Im also a bit confused as to why Roli bought em.

Also people are talking about several different things here. Some people are talking analog outboard gear like comps and eqs other are talking about synthesis. I still think analog can do things that digital cant in both arena's and visa versa. Both have their strengths and weaknesses and these things are pretty easily quantifiable. I really dont know why that is so hard for people to grasp.
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pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12317 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:38 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

zerocrossing wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
IncarnateX wrote:
pdxindy wrote:Me, I like the playability of synthesis... samples do not pitchbend well... if you want to tweak in realtime, samples do not work well...


Eh? Is that supposed to be an universal fact or are you just expressing your very own and rather unique opinion? I have a good deal of soft- and hardware romplers (e.g. Roland Fantom G6, Korg Legacy M1 and Wavestation) and they all pitch bend fine, thank you. If you insist that this should be the downfall of romplers, I am willing to post some examples, so you can explain the problem to me :tu:


yeah... I was not very clear about that. Using MPE controllers, it is more common to pitchbend more semitones and with different techniques such as doing note slides to multiple subsequent notes and not just a quick up and down. MPE controllers like the Rise and Linnstrument are more likely to reveal artifacts and a kind of unnatural tone depending on the preset and synth and type of sample.

and the second point... synthesis works better than samples for lots of realtime tweaking


Having mentioned that, Roli’s native instrument, Equator, relies heavily on samples. Not that I’d call Equator any gem in terms of analog modeling, but I never notice that it sounds unnatural when I’m slip-sliding around the Rise. I think if your sample bit depth and rate is high enough, you’ll be OK with artifacts from pitch bending. Off topic, I’m more confused as to why Roli bought FXpansion and yet, Strobe 2 remains MPE deaf.


Yeah... I'm curious about that... I have only played with Equator in the store but I do not remember hearing that particular pitch bend weirdness (subtle it is). Various synths that use samples may not put thought into it because this use of pitch bend is fairly new still... and obviously more demanding.

Not all synthesis is the same either. Kaivo for example, sounds particularly natural and lovely with pitch bending. It was designed as an MPE synth. I've been thinking about it and there can be quite a few parameters that are influenced by pitch. Maybe not all synths bend them accurately, or maybe the control rate is on the low side or something. Again, this is something new and good enough for the usual pitchbend wheel may not be quite there for MPE.
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12317 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:43 pm Re: What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?

Terrafractyl wrote:Also people are talking about several different things here. Some people are talking analog outboard gear like comps and eqs other are talking about synthesis. I still think analog can do things that digital cant in both arena's and visa versa. Both have their strengths and weaknesses and these things are pretty easily quantifiable. I really dont know why that is so hard for people to grasp.


I can easily tell the difference between analog and digital when they are in front of me. Just play really high notes. Analog stays clean. Of course most people do not even play notes that high.

In that sense it may not be hard to grasp... but simply that for the type of music and choices someone makes, they never touch the places where differences are heard... hence it does not matter to them.

The term should be analog synth modeling... cause acoustic guitars, flutes etc are analog :)
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