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Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
9101 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:14 am Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

Tell that to Softube.

Here's the patch. Those with Softube Modular can recreate it for themselves.

Modules Needed

Midi To CV
Buchla 259e
A-108 VCF 8
A-132-3 DVCA
A-140 ADSR
Audio Mix
Delay
Delay
A-147 VCLFO

Key Connections

DVCA Out to Audio Mix In 1
Audio Mix Out to Delay 1 In
Delay 1 Out to Audio Mix In 2
LFO Square to Delay 2 CV In
LFO Saw to Delay 2 In
Delay 2 Out to Delay 1 CV In
Audio Mix to Main Output

Adjust time and cv to taste. Be careful with settings. You can get some insane feedback with this patch.

Now, change the LFO frequency, which is ONLY fed into Delay 2, and it will change the delay 1 time as well as other artifacts.

So all you know it alls that tried to make me look like an idiot in the other thread by insisting that delays can't modulate other delays, tell that to Softube, because they must be doing something wrong.

THAT is what I want to do with insert delay FX in Cubase with any synth at all.

Is there an FX processor that will allow me to do EXACTLY what I did inside of Softube or is my only solution that I need a modular synth itself?

** EDIT ** Created another patch with 3 delays and 2 LFOs. Same concept. Added 6 performance modules. Some really wild results adjusting the 2 LFO frequencies and the time and CV of delays 2 and 3. Use square and saw waves from LFOs for most creative results.
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
25104 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:32 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

Generally, modulation isn't 'done' at audio rate in software like audio plugins, for various reasons. Its usually done at a much slower rate (often called the 'control rate'), meaning that calculations of modulators and involving modulation arent done as frequently. Even modulation involving audio as a source could be reading from that audio less frequently than audio rate, depending on how its been coded.

Now that's not to say it isn't possible, it does indeed sometimes get done, and its entirely likely that something like Softube Modular does do all its modulation at audio rate; that's a thing which I'd expect of a proper modular synth emulation.

However; generally delays are not modulation sources. They process audio, and output audio. Pedantically sticking to that was jens' ammunition for what he said.
Of course, we all know that in signal processing, audio can sometimes be used as a modulation source, and that in the real world, in an electronic device, audio could just be a voltage which could be routed to anything expecting a voltage as a modulation source.

However, to do it properly in software, you either have to be doing audio-rate modulation, or you have to be doing downsampling of audio rate modulation sources to control rate. And that's not necessarily going to be happening for the audio output of something like a delay which isn't generally found as part of the architecture of a synth's per-voice structure.

So I would only expect to find it in modular tools.

However, modulating a delay very quickly, ie at audio rate, isn't necessarily that 'useful' a thing. Beyond a certain speed, you're creating artefacts of the delay process, not delays. That's especially true in software where changing the delay time is a 'thing' to be considered all of its own.... A 250ms delay at 44.1Khz is a buffer approximately 10,000 samples long, but all of a sudden you want to be able to lengthen or shorten that in some way, by some amount, 44,1000 times a second....


At that point, a software developer who's not attempting to create all the possibilities of a modular synth may just think 'nope' and stick to far simple modulation capabilities, ones that could still be fast enough to produce just as many artefacts as real audio-rate modulation.

Im not quite sure what you think audio rate modulation of a delay gives you, outside the realm of weird noises. But very few real-world audio delay devices get modulated that fast. Many cant be (eg tape), and those that can (BBDs etc) arent, because its just not considered 'useful'. The only place it tends to be possible is in synth modules, and even where its possible (again BBDs, maybe even PT2399-based delays) when the source actually is audio(*), its probably producing artefacts more than anything, artefacts that I suspect are indistinguishable from ringmod and the like.
(* FWIW, if the source is control voltages then that may be more predictable, though technically they'd probably still be running at audio rate)

In short, while its technically possible, you're unlikely to see it done that often; any audio rate modulation is significantly more CPU intensive, the audio output of a delay is so atypically used as modulation source, the usefulness of the audio results of modulating a delay at audio rate is limited.

Modular software (ST Modular, Reaktor) is where you'll see it happen, or on the wild fringes of DIY (Synthedit and the like) experimentalism....
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."
CinningBao
KVRAF
 
1680 posts since 15 Apr, 2004, from Capital City, UK

Postby CinningBao; Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:39 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

this is the correct answer
shonky
KVRist
 
358 posts since 21 Nov, 2005

Postby shonky; Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:47 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

Thought I'd maybe understand the question better after reading the post but, after reading, not much clearer and don't yet have modular,any audio examples or a link to the original thread to enlighten me.
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
9101 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:51 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

@ whyterabbyt

So the TLDR version is, developers of delays won't do this because in general, outside of fringe cases, it's just not useful for the majority. Therefore, what I am looking for most likely doesn't exist and probably never will.

Pretty much it?
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foosnark
KVRAF
 
4024 posts since 9 Jan, 2003, from Saint Louis MO

Postby foosnark; Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:52 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

whyterabbyt wrote:Im not quite sure what you think audio rate modulation of a delay gives you, outside the realm of weird noises.


Audio rate delay modulation, in the right ranges of delay times and modulation amounts, is phase modulation. As in, the key to an entire synthesis method... extremely useful and not at all limited to "weird noises" though it's capable of that.

In a PM patch, running your modulation oscillator through a delay first would make transitions between different notes interesting. I only have one delay in my modular, but I *do* have a Hertz Donut, which does linear TZFM... so I can patch the modulator through a delay before it hits the FM input on the carrier. It's kind of a neat effect, and a little feedback makes it more interesting. A lot of feedback makes it much noisier, but that can still be musically useful.

So yeah, it's a "fringe case" but it's completely valid. Stuff like this is why people turn to modular.
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foosnark
KVRAF
 
4024 posts since 9 Jan, 2003, from Saint Louis MO

Postby foosnark; Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:58 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

...of course, being modular and having a DC-coupled delay, I could also route my pitch CV through a delay before it hits the modulator pitch input. That sounds surprisingly different (and cleaner, but requires retuning after adjusting feedback).
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
9101 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:13 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

foosnark wrote:
whyterabbyt wrote:Im not quite sure what you think audio rate modulation of a delay gives you, outside the realm of weird noises.


Audio rate delay modulation, in the right ranges of delay times and modulation amounts, is phase modulation. As in, the key to an entire synthesis method... extremely useful and not at all limited to "weird noises" though it's capable of that.

In a PM patch, running your modulation oscillator through a delay first would make transitions between different notes interesting. I only have one delay in my modular, but I *do* have a Hertz Donut, which does linear TZFM... so I can patch the modulator through a delay before it hits the FM input on the carrier. It's kind of a neat effect, and a little feedback makes it more interesting. A lot of feedback makes it much noisier, but that can still be musically useful.

So yeah, it's a "fringe case" but it's completely valid. Stuff like this is why people turn to modular.


Thanks for this. Yeah, running the Buchla modulation through the delay produces some pretty wild results.

So much I can do in modular that I wish I could do outside of it. But appears that I've got a long wait as far as FX processors that are capable of doing these kind of things.

Maybe someday.
elassi
KVRAF
 
1574 posts since 8 Sep, 2009

Postby elassi; Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:30 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

foosnark wrote:Audio rate delay modulation, in the right ranges of delay times and modulation amounts, is phase modulation.


Still, this is not what Wag asked for in the beginning. After all you don't need two delays to achieve this. He even says this in his recent and typical senseless (read: clueless) words* himself.

*running the Buchla modulation through the delay :borg:
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
9101 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:40 am Re: Delays Can't Modulate Other Delays?

elassi wrote:
foosnark wrote:Audio rate delay modulation, in the right ranges of delay times and modulation amounts, is phase modulation.


Still, this is not what Wag asked for in the beginning. After all you don't need two delays to achieve this. He even says this in his recent and typical senseless (read: clueless) words* himself.

*running the Buchla modulation through the delay :borg:


Know what, why don't you go screw yourself asshole!

The only one clueless around here is YOU.

I proved you can do what others said I can't.

Thread closed.

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