Bitwig and Ableton user here. Bitwig more. I would suggest to keep both to be honest. At least until Bitwig improves some things Live has it beat at, such as Stock Instruments/ Sampler and Time Stretching. I agree that Bitwig really is a ball however. I decided to purchase it and I have absolutely fallen in love. The Modulation Especially.mekanism wrote:If Ableton doesnt blow me away with 10 then Bitwig here I come. I have been messing around with the demo for a few weeks and its much more stable and faster than Live 9.5. Between the modulation possibilities, Hybrid tracks, tabbed projects, sandboxing, cleaner UI, and more display options what's not to love. I have noticed (although it could be in my head) that the sound quality is better with Bitwig as well. I'm really tempted to sell my Ableton license, and will do so if Ableton doesnt offer some really innovative stuff.
Ableton LIVE 10 ... Officially Announced. (plus: Buy LIVE 9 now with 20% discount, get LIVE 10 free)
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Spencer Maddox Spencer Maddox https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=406543 - KVRian
- 814 posts since 19 Oct, 2017 from The Empire State
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 2238 posts since 19 Dec, 2014
.... i'm going to be so disappointed if Live 10 doesn't have native modulation options. as a consolation prize i would accept some kind of M4L development that meant the M4L lfo's etc weren't absolute cpu pigs. Though the chances of that seem slimmer than getting them natively in the first place.
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Spencer Maddox Spencer Maddox https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=406543
- KVRian
- 814 posts since 19 Oct, 2017 from The Empire State
Native modulation options are a must for me to...the reason I started using Bitwig in the first place honestly was that that modulation system it has Is so easy visual and intuitive. Not to mention tons of fun. M4L just doesn’t have the same ease and flow as BW.Daags wrote:.... i'm going to be so disappointed if Live 10 doesn't have native modulation options. as a consolation prize i would accept some kind of M4L development that meant the M4L lfo's etc weren't absolute cpu pigs. Though the chances of that seem slimmer than getting them natively in the first place.
The post above this is likely bait, viewer discretion is advised.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 2238 posts since 19 Dec, 2014
I agree completely ... but the BitWig licensing scheme is cancerous as far as I'm concerned, and I'll have to give it a miss until that changes.Spencer Maddox wrote:Native modulation options are a must for me to...the reason I started using Bitwig in the first place honestly was that that modulation system it has Is so easy visual and intuitive. Not to mention tons of fun. M4L just doesn’t have the same ease and flow as BW.Daags wrote:.... i'm going to be so disappointed if Live 10 doesn't have native modulation options. as a consolation prize i would accept some kind of M4L development that meant the M4L lfo's etc weren't absolute cpu pigs. Though the chances of that seem slimmer than getting them natively in the first place.
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- KVRAF
- 4465 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
No loop preview in Browser, no rex support, weak sampler, worst timestretch ever released in a DAW and as an Ableton clone they missed to clone one of the most genius little features of Live´s fx: this tiny little bandpass filter on top, which is so often a real time saver...mekanism wrote:... Between the modulation possibilities, Hybrid tracks, tabbed projects, sandboxing, cleaner UI, and more display options what's not to love....
Just to name a few things one cannot only not love but hate about Bitwig....
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Spencer Maddox Spencer Maddox https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=406543
- KVRian
- 814 posts since 19 Oct, 2017 from The Empire State
Yea..its a bit much. I bit the bullet because of How fun it is to use, but it did make me reluctant to purchase. I feel that they should Either pull away from that licencing policy or make the price a bit less extreme. Since I would imagine your not the only one who's keeping your distance to use it because of that.Daags wrote:I agree completely ... but the BitWig licensing scheme is cancerous as far as I'm concerned, and I'll have to give it a miss until that changes.Spencer Maddox wrote:Native modulation options are a must for me to...the reason I started using Bitwig in the first place honestly was that that modulation system it has Is so easy visual and intuitive. Not to mention tons of fun. M4L just doesn’t have the same ease and flow as BW.Daags wrote:.... i'm going to be so disappointed if Live 10 doesn't have native modulation options. as a consolation prize i would accept some kind of M4L development that meant the M4L lfo's etc weren't absolute cpu pigs. Though the chances of that seem slimmer than getting them natively in the first place.
Last edited by Spencer Maddox on Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 11053 posts since 12 May, 2008
I agree that the Bitwig sampler sucks. But I can preview audio loops just fine in Bitwig's browser. Or do you mean midi loops? That's fairly rare in DAWs I think. As for Rex and timestretch, yeah doesn't bother me too much as you can always can a plugin to handle these things. And bandpass filter? You put a bandpass filter on anything, inlcuding in the feedback path of some of their effects. So that one's easy. And way more versatile in bitwig.Trancit wrote:No loop preview in Browser, no rex support, weak sampler, worst timestretch ever released in a DAW and as an Ableton clone they missed to clone one of the most genius little features of Live´s fx: this tiny little bandpass filter on top, which is so often a real time saver...mekanism wrote:... Between the modulation possibilities, Hybrid tracks, tabbed projects, sandboxing, cleaner UI, and more display options what's not to love....
Just to name a few things one cannot only not love but hate about Bitwig....
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Spencer Maddox Spencer Maddox https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=406543
- KVRian
- 814 posts since 19 Oct, 2017 from The Empire State
Its important to mention that Bitwig is very young. Many of Trancit's Points are valid, Specifically the one about Timestreatch and the Sampler. But Bitwig is still the new kid on the block, at least when compared to the Giants its trying to overthrow. All of witch have much more time, in some cases Decades of work into them. My stay with bitwig will ultimately depend on 1: If live 10 learns from its mistakes in the past and Knocks it out of the park for me. And/Or 2: If Bitwigs Devs Fix some of the young programs flaws. Such as the Timestretch Algorithm specifically (I own kontakt so the sampler isint AS big of a deal).
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- KVRAF
- 4465 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
But the loop doesn´t loop... it plays one time through the audio and stops... this is an absolutely no go for me...Echoes in the Attic wrote: But I can preview audio loops just fine in Bitwig's browser. Or do you mean midi loops? That's fairly rare in DAWs I think.
As for Rex and timestretch, yeah doesn't bother me too much as you can always can a plugin to handle these things.
How can a DAW be fantastic if it forces you to 3rd party plugins, what nearly every DAW does natively???
The genius thing about this in Ableton is, that their is no need to load a second plugin... we are talking about a time saver... loading additional plugins is neither a timesaver nor being very innovative... can be done with everything... and with 99.5% of fx you could use in a feedback path you´ll never hear any difference, if it´s in the feedback path or after the plugin... means: 99.5% meaningless/useless...And bandpass filter? You put a bandpass filter on anything, inlcuding in the feedback path of some of their effects. So that one's easy. And way more versatile in bitwig.
Same in Bitwig for a ping pong delay... doesn´t exist... can be done as a workaround though, but if they force me to use workarounds with such simple tasks, where shall this stop...
Sorry, but for me, their is very little innovative in Bitwig... the main app copied from Ableton, the modulation system copied from FL Studio, even if they extended both of them (which can be expected to make at least something on their own)...
If you are happy with Bitwig... fine for you... but again for me personaly, they did everything wrong, what you could do wrong with a new product: kicking out all the features I like on the originals and wasting lots of time on features, which are useless for me... but everybody is different
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- KVRAF
- 25417 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
- M4L was always a problem for me... it was unstable and used too much CPU. I prefer Bitwig's modulation by a big margin.
Editing audio is far better in Bitwig than in Live.
Want to add a bit of random velocity variation to some midi notes in Live... ugh. Bitwig it is easy.
Have 6 identical clips in Live and want to edit them? Gotta do it one by one. Bitwig you can edit them all at once together.
Bitwig can have groups in groups... oops... no can do in Live
Multiple projects open at once
Bitwig works very well with hardware... both midi and CV and with excellent sync and timing (again no need for M4L)
Clip launcher and Arrange visible together.
and of course MPE support! Still not quite complete but much better than the big fat zero of Live (which cannot even record polyAT)
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- KVRAF
- 14989 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Hm, that’s good news indeed. Live has so far been really clumsy to use MPE instruments with. Maybe this could signal that they’re on board with MPE? This could be huge. Imagine a Push where each pad was also sensitive to x/y position and release velocity?Jax Pok wrote:Installed the latest Ableton 9 beta last night it has support for Roli Blocks and Roli released a new Dashboard with an Ableton preset for the Lightpad which enables it to launch clips
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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- KVRAF
- 14989 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
I had big problems with Bitwig when it was first released, but I should probably give it another try. If Live doesn’t really nail it, it could be time to abandon it. It’s served me well, but they do seem to be ignoring one segment of their user base and I’m at the point where I don’t use Live for what it really is best for... so why am I putting up with it’s shortcomings? Mostly familiarity. I just know it so well.pdxindy wrote:There are things I like better about Live... but Live 10 would have to be an amazing update for me to consider it. I don't believe that will happen.
- M4L was always a problem for me... it was unstable and used too much CPU. I prefer Bitwig's modulation by a big margin.
Editing audio is far better in Bitwig than in Live.
Want to add a bit of random velocity variation to some midi notes in Live... ugh. Bitwig it is easy.
Have 6 identical clips in Live and want to edit them? Gotta do it one by one. Bitwig you can edit them all at once together.
Bitwig can have groups in groups... oops... no can do in Live
Multiple projects open at once
Bitwig works very well with hardware... both midi and CV and with excellent sync and timing (again no need for M4L)
Clip launcher and Arrange visible together.
and of course MPE support! Still not quite complete but much better than the big fat zero of Live (which cannot even record polyAT)
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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- KVRist
- 180 posts since 8 May, 2015
Agree - just put off by bitwigs subscriptionzerocrossing wrote:I had big problems with Bitwig when it was first released, but I should probably give it another try. If Live doesn’t really nail it, it could be time to abandon it. It’s served me well, but they do seem to be ignoring one segment of their user base and I’m at the point where I don’t use Live for what it really is best for... so why am I putting up with it’s shortcomings? Mostly familiarity. I just know it so well.pdxindy wrote:There are things I like better about Live... but Live 10 would have to be an amazing update for me to consider it. I don't believe that will happen.
- M4L was always a problem for me... it was unstable and used too much CPU. I prefer Bitwig's modulation by a big margin.
Editing audio is far better in Bitwig than in Live.
Want to add a bit of random velocity variation to some midi notes in Live... ugh. Bitwig it is easy.
Have 6 identical clips in Live and want to edit them? Gotta do it one by one. Bitwig you can edit them all at once together.
Bitwig can have groups in groups... oops... no can do in Live
Multiple projects open at once
Bitwig works very well with hardware... both midi and CV and with excellent sync and timing (again no need for M4L)
Clip launcher and Arrange visible together.
and of course MPE support! Still not quite complete but much better than the big fat zero of Live (which cannot even record polyAT)
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- KVRAF
- 25417 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
Both Live and Bitwig have some problematic limitations (for me). One example, neither of them records midi channel data. Which makes both of them incapable of recording midi as played from my Linnstrument.zerocrossing wrote: I had big problems with Bitwig when it was first released, but I should probably give it another try. If Live doesn’t really nail it, it could be time to abandon it. It’s served me well, but they do seem to be ignoring one segment of their user base and I’m at the point where I don’t use Live for what it really is best for... so why am I putting up with it’s shortcomings? Mostly familiarity. I just know it so well.
Since getting the Linnstrument, I am mostly using Logic. It just works... and it has the benefit of dealing well with tempo and time signature automation, has an easy to use takes system and a lot of refined tools. It's great for working with video. I also get to use both Alchemy and Sculpture (both MPE capable)
So then it is either Live or Bitwig as my second DAW. My impression is that Ableton considers Live to be a mature and mainly complete DAW. The Bitwig devs are still in the "we are new and need/want to be innovative to make a name for ourselves" stage. So I see Bitwig as more likely to grow in ways interesting to me over the next few years.
Of course, if Live 10 surprises me, well, I am willing to change my opinion. However, the thought of having to install M4L again leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Bitwig is self contained so I am predisposed to it, especially as a second DAW.
