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peteman
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300 posts since 12 Feb, 2005, from Finland

Postby peteman; Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:44 am Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

Let's say I wan't to create a free sample pack which contains melodic audio loops (in .WAV format) played with piano.

After reading the EULA, most of the piano vsti's I have doesn't allow me to use them into this kind of purpose.

Does anyone know are there any piano vsti's which allows me to use them for this kind of purpose or is my only option to go and record a real piano?
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jancivil
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13259 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:54 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

Nobody in the business of sampling pianos (or anything) is going to allow you to take their work and repackage it for distribution.
peteman
KVRist
 
300 posts since 12 Feb, 2005, from Finland

Postby peteman; Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:56 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

jancivil wrote:Nobody in the business of sampling pianos (or anything) is going to allow you to take their work and repackage it for distribution.


Thanks for your reply.

However, just to make clear: I'm talking about melodic loop's/performance's here. In other words, using an instrument provided by those "in the business of sampling" to play melodic ideas. NOT copying their recorded single-one-shot samples and distribute them as is (as a competitive product).

I think it's derivative work what I'm talking about here (right?)

I've been thinking this a quite lot in a legal point of view. Which have got me thinking also this: let's say I buy (in theory) a real physical Bösendorfer Grand piano and I wan't to record it's sound to audio (whether it's one-shots for a sampled piano vsti-rompler, or just loops/performances as .WAV loops) and I wan't to distribute these as commercial or non-commercial products. The question is: do I have to ask Bösendorfer for a special license to do this? After all, I'm using their work (physical product they've built) to create mine. And basically, aren't those who are in the business of sampling instruments also using someone else's work to create theirs and are they allowed to do this?
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sin night
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1033 posts since 1 Aug, 2006, from Italy

Postby sin night; Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:54 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

If you use a real piano, you can do whatever you want with your recordings; if there's software involved, then you have to deal with licenses. Look at the eula of the libraries and maybe ask who did the library. It's a bit of grey area, from a certain point of view it would be a competitive product because they would use the loops instead of buying the piano library. Maybe you could arrange a deal with the author of the piano library, so they receive a certain percentage from your loops sales? I don't know, I'm not into these things.

Anyway, if you were to make a piano loop library, I would suggest you to use a real piano and make proper recordings (so the recordings bring something special to the table) or to provide midi files instead of audio. While each piano library has its own response to playing and the midi files may require some adjustments for the performance to translate properly, the midi files give a lot more freedom to the user.
If the sound has to be generated from a sampled piano, then I'd prefer dealing with midi files and to be able to switch between different libraries/instruments that I own (maybe even synths, not just piano sounds), to apply transposition and to change tempo without the artifacts associated with audio transposition/pitch shift... And, as a nice bonus, you don't have to deal with other people copyrights on the instruments.

I wouldn't use a loop library anyway (but that's just me)...

Just my 2 cents.
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jancivil
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13259 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:07 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

Well, do a search and see what you find. If it's samples of pianos and you're trying to distribute a product which uses the samples that isn't original music, but is a samples, "loops" product, read the agreement you entered into for that samples library or what-have-you. The distinction "non-commercial" will have no bearing on this.

If you can characterize the end result your music, ie., your composition and production while using the thing, you're ok in most if not all cases.

Native Instruments
8. In case a sound library is part of the purchased Product the following shall apply in addition to the EULA (Sound License Agreement):
The provided samples, instruments and presets can be used for commercial or non-commercial music and audio productions without the prior permission from Native Instruments under the terms of this Sound License Agreement. The usage of this Product (in particular samples, instruments and presets) for the creation of a sound library or as a sound library for any kind of synthesizer, virtual instrument, sample library, sample-based product or other musical instrument is strictly prohibited. Individual samples, sound sets or audio loops may not be distributed (commercially or otherwise) standalone. Furthermore these samples, sound sets or audio may not be repackaged in whole or in part as audio samples, sound libraries or sound effects.
__________________________

EWQL
B. You may use the EASTWEST SOFTWARE to create your own original music compositions or soundtracks for your film, video, music, and audio projects, and you may broadcast and/or distribute your own original music compositions or soundtracks that were created using EASTWEST SOFTWARE.
C. You may not use the EASTWEST SOFTWARE to create sounds or other content for any kind of synthesizer, virtual instrument, sample library, sample-based product, musical instrument, music or sound effects created by computers or machines, or any competitive product without a written fully executed agreement from EASTWEST [...]

the argument making the manufacturer of a physical piano the same problem doesn't follow and it would seem to be obvious why (you didn't buy a license, you bought a piano).

The fact of 'loops product' places this within the restrictions I have no doubt. I wouldn't know how to call it anything else, it's at best a construction kit and I don't think that is allowed in what I'm reading.
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jancivil
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13259 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:15 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

sin night wrote: Look at the eula of the libraries and maybe ask who did the library. It's a bit of grey area, from a certain point of view it would be a competitive product

From the POV of the entity you entered into the license agreement with it most probably is.
shidostrife
KVRist
 
477 posts since 22 Nov, 2016

Postby shidostrife; Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:39 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

If you want to distribute melodic performance, why not just sell midi loops?
Jafo
KVRAF
 
1792 posts since 20 Dec, 2002, from The Benighted States of Trumpistan

Postby Jafo; Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:37 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

peteman wrote:Does anyone know are there any piano vsti's which allows me to use them for this kind of purpose or is my only option to go and record a real piano?

Maybe some freeware sample sets, but I really, really doubt it. Seriously, unless you have the money -- and lawyers! -- to take on Native Instruments or the like, your best bet is one of these:

  • Record yourself (or a pianist)
  • Make your own sample set (which you could also sell separately)
  • Sell midi loops
Joy and kindness are acts of resistance -- fight the power!
Jafo
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1792 posts since 20 Dec, 2002, from The Benighted States of Trumpistan

Postby Jafo; Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:42 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

Actually, I wonder if Pianoteq's license allows you to... I only see conditions about reproduction of the software -- nothing about recording. But then, I studied English, not Lawyerese or Republican.
Joy and kindness are acts of resistance -- fight the power!
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jancivil
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13259 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:27 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

peteman wrote: And basically, aren't those who are in the business of sampling instruments also using someone else's work to create theirs and are they allowed to do this?

You're engaging in deliberate sophistry which makes one think you're kind of sneaky. Or you're telling us you don't know the difference between a piano which you buy and own and a license to use something that you do not own.

"unless you have the money -- and lawyers! -- to take on Native Instruments or the like..."
Wouldn't change the fact that you'll have agreed definitively to not create other sample products with theirs. You'll lose.
yellowmix
KVRist
 
312 posts since 10 Aug, 2012

Postby yellowmix; Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:51 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

Pianos are tangible property. You cannot make a comparison to intangible (no physical form or substance) property.

Samples are a recording. Recordings are intangible property. Under international copyright law, you cannot distribute copies of the recording, including derivative works. This poses a problem for those who sell sample packs intended for music. They can sue those who do so, because what they sold is a copyrighted recording. Customers wouldn't buy the packs without assurance they will not be sued. This is why they provide a license. The license gives you specific rights, namely that to create a derivative work without royalties. No sample pack is distributed without such a license, except those under public domain.

Those licenses are written by lawyers who specifically exclude derivative works such as sample libraries. There is no way around this. You can create "construction kits" or whatever, but you cannot provide assurance to your customers because to give them license to create derivative works is inherently admitting you are violating the VSTi license.

So if you want to argue this, argue it with a copyright lawyer instead of random people on the internet. You want to completely change half a millennia of common law because you think a piano and a virtual piano are the same, go right ahead. Or you can try to find a public domain set of piano samples.

As for Pianoteq, their license is similar to sample-based piano instruments. Remember that even if it isn't sample-based, Pianoteq is software, an intangible property. Modartt did not sell you a physical piano.
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JJBiener
KVRian
 
1026 posts since 26 Nov, 2005

Postby JJBiener; Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:17 pm Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

peteman wrote:Let's say I wan't to create a free sample pack which contains melodic audio loops (in .WAV format) played with piano.

After reading the EULA, most of the piano vsti's I have doesn't allow me to use them into this kind of purpose.

Does anyone know are there any piano vsti's which allows me to use them for this kind of purpose or is my only option to go and record a real piano?


There are some public domain piano libraries that can be used to create derivative works. When I was looking at some free Kontakt piano libraries, many were based on public domain samples. It will probably take a bit of research, but I think you can find what you are looking for.
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peteman
KVRist
 
300 posts since 12 Feb, 2005, from Finland

Postby peteman; Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:26 am Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

jancivil wrote:You're engaging in deliberate sophistry which makes one think you're kind of sneaky. Or you're telling us you don't know the difference between a piano which you buy and own and a license to use something that you do not own


I'm not quite sure. Maybe a tiny bit now that I think of it.

Either way, I have definitely been uncertain about sampling a real physical piano, at least when it comes to one-shot samples and making a some sort of rompler out of those samples.

But now that I'm reading the comments I'm starting to get a clearer picture.

So basically:

real physical piano = tangible product = I buy it, I own it, no license agreement involved = I'm free to sample it however I like

software instrument = intangible product = I buy it, I get the license to use it = restrictions how I can use it
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Aloysius
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20894 posts since 11 Aug, 2008, from a computer

Postby Aloysius; Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:48 am Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

^ Maybe restrictions because a software instrument uses samples. What about a VSTi that doesn't use samples? Does TruePianos use samples for example? Physical modelling synthesis?
I'm the operator, with my pocket calculator.
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fmr
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6441 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:06 am Re: Searching piano vsti that can be used to create piano loops samplepack [legal question]

Aloysius wrote:^ Maybe restrictions because a software instrument uses samples. What about a VSTi that doesn't use samples? Does TruePianos use samples for example? Physical modelling synthesis?

True Pianos uses samples, mixed with PM. Pianoteq is a pure PM instrument.
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