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You guys are really just talking from different POV, y'know .-.

Subscription is when you pay to get ACCESS to a service.

Bitwig's model is more like newspaper subscription, you don't pay, you don't get the new issues, but you could do anything you want with the old issues you paid before.
However, when we're talking about software subscription, we usually don't talk about newspaper-model subscription. When talking software, we talk about adobe's or slate's model. You don't pay, you can't use. In software world, newspaper-model subscription are usually called "paid update" (cubase), "update plan" (waves), and other similar terms.

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shidostrife wrote:You guys are really just talking from different POV, y'know .-.
not really. I'm talking from the position of fully understanding what subscription means. pdxindy & slic are talking from a position of 'derp derp, if it aint like adobe's model, it aint subscription, derp derp' - that's not a POV so much as it is simply wilful ignorance ... or dishonest manipulation in pdxindy's case :roll:
shidostrife wrote: Subscription is when you pay to get ACCESS to a service.
or a series of products. or ... or.... or .....

subscription is an umbrella term. this isn't rocket science. anyone who wants to spit their dummy out because bitwig's model and adobe's model fit under the same umbrella term, despite not being identical, can go right ahead. doesn't change the facts.
shidostrife wrote: When talking software, we talk about adobe's or slate's model. You don't pay, you can't use.
We ? Speak for yourself.

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Abletons "upgrade plan" is buy a version and get but fixes and small updates until the next version comes out.

BitWigs "upgrade plan" is buy a version and get bug fixes and small updates for one year.

If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.

Simples :o

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Daags wrote:subscription is an umbrella term. this isn't rocket science. anyone who wants to spit their dummy out because bitwig's model and adobe's model fit under the same umbrella term
along with Live, Cubase and most other software you can buy that has semi-regular paid updates...

In other words... by that definition, the word subscription is approaching meaningless and certainly does not have the negative connotation you ascribe to it.

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dellboy wrote:If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.
And if you need a bug fix for Live 8, Cubase 7 and so on, you will also need to pay their "upgrade plan" fee.

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pdxindy wrote:
dellboy wrote:If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.
And if you need a bug fix for Live 8, Cubase 7 and so on, you will also need to pay their "upgrade plan" fee.
Play a thought game with me. I'm gonna give you 2 version numbers of a particular software, you tell me which one you'd guess is more stable.

9.0.3 or 9.7.5?

So which version would you rather be stuck on.....?

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Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote:You guys are really just talking from different POV, y'know .-.
not really. I'm talking from the position of fully understanding what subscription means. pdxindy & slic are talking from a position of 'derp derp, if it aint like adobe's model, it aint subscription, derp derp' - that's not a POV so much as it is simply wilful ignorance ... or dishonest manipulation in pdxindy's case :roll:
You are talking about access to UPDATES (which is indeed a sub), the others are talking about access to USE Bitwig (which is not). I call that different POV, but feel free to call it anything you want. I'm sure you understand.
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote: Subscription is when you pay to get ACCESS to a service.
or a series of products. or ... or.... or .....

subscription is an umbrella term. this isn't rocket science. anyone who wants to spit their dummy out because bitwig's model and adobe's model fit under the same umbrella term, despite not being identical, can go right ahead. doesn't change the facts.
Hey, I got that definition from YOUR link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subscript ... ness_model
The subscription business model is a business model where a customer must pay a subscription price to have access to a product or service.
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote: When talking software, we talk about adobe's or slate's model. You don't pay, you can't use.
We ? Speak for yourself.
I mentioned my examples, which you intentionally didn't quote. Cubase's paid major updates, and Waves Update Plan. I'll add more. Pro Tools has both models. The perpetual license+update plan, where you keep your current version if you stop paying, and subscription model where you can't use the software if you stop paying.

https://shop.avid.com/ccrz__ProductDeta ... RFlow=true

Notice the pattern here? Only companies that use adobe's model call their service subscription. Bitwig's model is called update plan.

Again, if you consider the access to UPDATES, then yes it is a sub. But if we're talking about access to USE, then it is not. Different POV, like I said.

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pdxindy wrote:
Daags wrote:subscription is an umbrella term. this isn't rocket science. anyone who wants to spit their dummy out because bitwig's model and adobe's model fit under the same umbrella term
along with Live, Cubase and most other software you can buy that has semi-regular paid updates...

In other words... by that definition, the word subscription is approaching meaningless and certainly does not have the negative connotation you ascribe to it.
not. at. all.

Live X advertises a list of functions & features (adding some features here & there to this list throughout the lifecycle). If there are bugs or problems with the core app and/or the new functions & features, for all intents & purposes these will be addressed within the version X lifecycle without you needing to put your hands in your pockets again.

Bitwig Studio X advertises a list of functions & features (adding some features here & there to this list through the lifecycle). If there are bugs or problems with the core app and/or the new functions & features, you better hope they get bugfixed before your current subscription runs out ... or you will have to renew your subscription for another year just to get the bugfix. or roll back some versions to a point before the bug was introduced, but then forego whatever features were added after that point ...... lollll, and you want to argue about this like there is any comparison. talk about disingenuous intent ... first you play games to tie 'subscription' to the adobe model, now you play games to strip it of any meaning whatsoever :roll:

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Daags wrote:
not. at. all.

Live X advertises a list of functions & features (adding some features here & there to this list throughout the lifecycle). If there are bugs or problems with the core app and/or the new functions & features, for all intents & purposes these will be addressed within the version X lifecycle without you needing to put your hands in your pockets again.
not. at. all. - except when it's otherwise :hihi:

I cannot tell you how many times I have had to pay for an upgrade to get some bug fixes... including Live more than once...

the difference between theory and practice is that in theory they are the same...

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shidostrife wrote:
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote:You guys are really just talking from different POV, y'know .-.
not really. I'm talking from the position of fully understanding what subscription means. pdxindy & slic are talking from a position of 'derp derp, if it aint like adobe's model, it aint subscription, derp derp' - that's not a POV so much as it is simply wilful ignorance ... or dishonest manipulation in pdxindy's case :roll:
You are talking about access to UPDATES (which is indeed a sub), the others are talking about access to USE Bitwig (which is not). I call that different POV, but feel free to call it anything you want. I'm sure you understand.
I know what I am talking about, I know what they are talking about, I don't need you sticking your oar in to tell me what I am talking about, and what they are talking about. Do you understand ? If you want to add your 2 cents, go ahead ... but spare me the rest.
shidostrife wrote:
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote: Subscription is when you pay to get ACCESS to a service.
or a series of products. or ... or.... or .....

subscription is an umbrella term. this isn't rocket science. anyone who wants to spit their dummy out because bitwig's model and adobe's model fit under the same umbrella term, despite not being identical, can go right ahead. doesn't change the facts.
Hey, I got that definition from YOUR link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subscript ... ness_model
The subscription business model is a business model where a customer must pay a subscription price to have access to a product or service.
no shit, the irony of someone lecturing me based on things they repeated from the link I provided them with did not escape me. first of all ... you said "Subscription is when you pay to get ACCESS to a service.", and as you can see from the quote there, it says "access to a product or service." ... and what was my reply ? that's right ... my reply was "or a series of products. or ... or.... or ....." because, besides the fact it can mean access to product(s) (a very important distinction to service - and something you omitted), the definition is broad enough that it covers various models of business. not a singular one. which is the crux of everything. pdxindy wants to argue one of two extremes - that a subscription is either the adobe model (his main position up until lately), or that the term subscription is meaningless (a recent position) - when the reality is there are various subscription models, of which bitwig is one and Live, for example, is not. he's just being wilfully manipulative, disingenuous and outright dishonest. because he has an emotional attachment to bitwig, and it hurts his feels to have a dirty word like subscription associated with it.

shidostrife wrote:
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote: When talking software, we talk about adobe's or slate's model. You don't pay, you can't use.
We ? Speak for yourself.
I mentioned my examples, which you intentionally didn't quote. Cubase's paid major updates, and Waves Update Plan. I'll add more. Pro Tools has both models. The perpetual license+update plan, where you keep your current version if you stop paying, and subscription model where you can't use the software if you stop paying.
there was no 'intention' behind not quoting the rest of your post (though it's rich of you to suggest, considering your ommission of the word 'product' when quoting the subscription definition). you completely lost me when you presumed to speak for everyone, rather than yourself. which I made clear. not to mention i was not about to address the 'newspaper' stuff since you obviously just lifted it from the link I provided, as if I need the content i pointed out to you repeated back to me.
shidostrife wrote: https://shop.avid.com/ccrz__ProductDeta ... RFlow=true

Notice the pattern here? Only companies that use adobe's model call their service subscription. Bitwig's model is called update plan.
Bitwig can call it cherry blosom icecream for all that it matters, it doesn't change the fact. Subscription is a toxic term - polarising at best - as should be pretty evident to anyone who has read or discussed the topic in A/V forums, particularly those frequented by hobbyists. So it is absolutely no surprise that Bitwig, and any dev for that matter, goes out of their way to call their individual subscription schemes by some other term. Adobe can brute force it, because Adobe is Adobe. Adobe could call it 'your monthly ass reaming, sans lube' without taking so much as a dent to their bottom line (no pun intended).
shidostrife wrote: Again, if you consider the access to UPDATES, then yes it is a sub. But if we're talking about access to USE, then it is not. Different POV, like I said.
No. It is a subscription, period. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. Subscription is an umbrella term that covers a few different models. Just because it doesn't fulfill all the criteria for every single model does not mean an individual can have the POV that it is not a subscription, and expect that they are right in saying so. If your POV is that it is not a subscription, you are wrong. it's that simple.

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samsam wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
dellboy wrote:If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.
And if you need a bug fix for Live 8, Cubase 7 and so on, you will also need to pay their "upgrade plan" fee.
Play a thought game with me. I'm gonna give you 2 version numbers of a particular software, you tell me which one you'd guess is more stable.

9.0.3 or 9.7.5?

So which version would you rather be stuck on.....?
he doesn't seem keen on answering this, I wonder why.

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samsam wrote:
Play a thought game with me. I'm gonna give you 2 version numbers of a particular software, you tell me which one you'd guess is more stable.

9.0.3 or 9.7.5?

So which version would you rather be stuck on.....?
Which would have more features? The newer one. But more stable? there is no way to know as a general rule... I have seen plenty of instances where the more stable would be the older one. There is a reason lots of Mac users stayed on 10.6.8 for years even though the later OS'es were free.

In the end, the model (assuming its voluntary) doesn't much matter. What people are arguing about is just money. If Bitwig had set the price for 12 months of updates at $15, nobody would have complained about the model at all.

Over the next some years, it is for sure likely that Bitwig will cost more than Live. That however is only one consideration in which to buy. Bitwig has functionality that is valuable to me that Live does not. Plus Bitwig is being developed in more interesting ways (for me) than Live. That is why I recommended Bitwig to the OP. It is more forward thinking and modern.

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Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote:
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote:You guys are really just talking from different POV, y'know .-.
not really. I'm talking from the position of fully understanding what subscription means. pdxindy & slic are talking from a position of 'derp derp, if it aint like adobe's model, it aint subscription, derp derp' - that's not a POV so much as it is simply wilful ignorance ... or dishonest manipulation in pdxindy's case :roll:
You are talking about access to UPDATES (which is indeed a sub), the others are talking about access to USE Bitwig (which is not). I call that different POV, but feel free to call it anything you want. I'm sure you understand.
I know what I am talking about, I know what they are talking about, I don't need you sticking your oar in to tell me what I am talking about, and what they are talking about. Do you understand ? If you want to add your 2 cents, go ahead ... but spare me the rest.
shidostrife wrote:
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote: Subscription is when you pay to get ACCESS to a service.
or a series of products. or ... or.... or .....

subscription is an umbrella term. this isn't rocket science. anyone who wants to spit their dummy out because bitwig's model and adobe's model fit under the same umbrella term, despite not being identical, can go right ahead. doesn't change the facts.
Hey, I got that definition from YOUR link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subscript ... ness_model
The subscription business model is a business model where a customer must pay a subscription price to have access to a product or service.
no shit, the irony of someone lecturing me based on things they repeated from the link I provided them with did not escape me. first of all ... you said "Subscription is when you pay to get ACCESS to a service.", and as you can see from the quote there, it says "access to a product or service." ... and what was my reply ? that's right ... my reply was "or a series of products. or ... or.... or ....." because, besides the fact it can mean access to product(s) (a very important distinction to service - and something you omitted), the definition is broad enough that it covers various models of business. not a singular one. which is the crux of everything. pdxindy wants to argue one of two extremes - that a subscription is either the adobe model (his main position up until lately), or that the term subscription is meaningless (a recent position) - when the reality is there are various subscription models, of which bitwig is one and Live, for example, is not. he's just being wilfully manipulative, disingenuous and outright dishonest. because he has an emotional attachment to bitwig, and it hurts his feels to have a dirty word like subscription associated with it.

shidostrife wrote:
Daags wrote:
shidostrife wrote: When talking software, we talk about adobe's or slate's model. You don't pay, you can't use.
We ? Speak for yourself.
I mentioned my examples, which you intentionally didn't quote. Cubase's paid major updates, and Waves Update Plan. I'll add more. Pro Tools has both models. The perpetual license+update plan, where you keep your current version if you stop paying, and subscription model where you can't use the software if you stop paying.
there was no 'intention' behind not quoting the rest of your post (though it's rich of you to suggest, considering your ommission of the word 'product' when quoting the subscription definition). you completely lost me when you presumed to speak for everyone, rather than yourself. which I made clear. not to mention i was not about to address the 'newspaper' stuff since you obviously just lifted it from the link I provided, as if I need the content i pointed out to you repeated back to me.
shidostrife wrote: https://shop.avid.com/ccrz__ProductDeta ... RFlow=true

Notice the pattern here? Only companies that use adobe's model call their service subscription. Bitwig's model is called update plan.
Bitwig can call it cherry blosom icecream for all that it matters, it doesn't change the fact. Subscription is a toxic term - polarising at best - as should be pretty evident to anyone who has read or discussed the topic in A/V forums, particularly those frequented by hobbyists. So it is absolutely no surprise that Bitwig, and any dev for that matter, goes out of their way to call their individual subscription schemes by some other term. Adobe can brute force it, because Adobe is Adobe. Adobe could call it 'your monthly ass reaming, sans lube' without taking so much as a dent to their bottom line (no pun intended).
shidostrife wrote: Again, if you consider the access to UPDATES, then yes it is a sub. But if we're talking about access to USE, then it is not. Different POV, like I said.
No. It is a subscription, period. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. Subscription is an umbrella term that covers a few different models. Just because it doesn't fulfill all the criteria for every single model does not mean an individual can have the POV that it is not a subscription, and expect that they are right in saying so. If your POV is that it is not a subscription, you are wrong. it's that simple.
Alright, I am wrong. Bitwig's model is subscription.

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pdxindy wrote:
dellboy wrote:If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.
And if you need a bug fix for Live 8, Cubase 7 and so on, you will also need to pay their "upgrade plan" fee.
Really ?

I thought bug fixes were free in between major update versions of live ?

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samsam wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
dellboy wrote:If we buy Bitwigs version and need a bug fix after the "free updates" expire then we need to pay our "upgrade plan" fee.
And if you need a bug fix for Live 8, Cubase 7 and so on, you will also need to pay their "upgrade plan" fee.
Play a thought game with me. I'm gonna give you 2 version numbers of a particular software, you tell me which one you'd guess is more stable.

9.0.3 or 9.7.5?

So which version would you rather be stuck on.....?
I clearly do not know what I am talking about.

I genuinely thought that basic bug fixes for already added features were free between major upgrades.

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