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noiseboyuk
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1872 posts since 25 Jan, 2007

Postby noiseboyuk; Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:03 am Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

Compyfox wrote:Again, I ask "how" this should be possible to port from a technical standpoint.

You need to "mess up" the engine from "perfect pitch placement" to (as I'd call it) "wonky". I mean, you port keyboard notes into "fret positions" - so the positions need to be slightly off for a fretless.

Vibrato is already possible with the current engine. Slide noises would be reduced (the only usable thing I'd see here) and yes, no noticed "fixed pitch" (in semi tones) while sliding.


I might be talking up a wall of "fretless bass fans", but I still don't see a reason for it.


Its not a case of being a fan of it or not - it's just a different style. Which is a thing. Again, I tell you - repeatedly - fretless isn't about wonky pitch. A C would still be a C with no deviation, for this is a fine virtual fretless bass player, and not a rubbish one. A violinist isn't all about wonky pitch either you know.

I don't see what technical issue you appear to see why the fretless behaviour isn't modelable. As for vibrato - yes you can do that now and it sounds fake because you can't do this kind of vibrato on a fretted bass. You can sorta do it with perpendicular movement to the fretboard, but it's a different effect. With fretless, it's natural, just as it is on a (fretless) violin. With fretted its an effort.

Enough of me yakking. Listen to and watch Pino Paladino.

https://youtu.be/TRjiMN2qJHI?t=19

(you'd think they'd paint white lines on the bass to give you a bit of help, but no they don't the swines).

Anyway, that's my Sunday KVR diversion over for the day, I don't think I have anything else to add that I haven't already said. You asked why someone people think a fretless bass would be useful, I told you why I would, and that's about it for me.
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Compyfox
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14159 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:01 am Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

noiseboyuk wrote:Its not a case of being a fan of it or not - it's just a different style. Which is a thing. Again, I tell you - repeatedly - fretless isn't about wonky pitch. A C would still be a C with no deviation, for this is a fine virtual fretless bass player, and not a rubbish one. A violinist isn't all about wonky pitch either you know.


Ooooh, touchy subject then (just as much as the topic "tone wood").


I did my "homework" on this, and I think it boils down to the following:

No frets means:
- no fixed tone due to fixed fret positions (micro pitches possible)
- true Glissando
- different vibrato (what you currently consider "fake-ish")
- a different string buzz (due to lack of frets)
- different attack (because finger equals a fret, therefore the string is deadened a bit, it's closer to the fretboard, etc)
- different string action (in order to compensate the "deadened" strings and buzzing, a higher string height makes more sense)


Now that we've established that... what holds you off from doing the following things:

- Action: High (and muting at 0-10%) or Medium (with muting at 30-40%)
- medium to heavy strings, broken in or old (to let it sound more "mellow")
- Slide Noise: 0
- Detach Noise: 0 (or low enough)
- Active Circuit, slightly boosted treble
- or if you want more "acoustic" feel, then 50% Piezo bar minimum




"But that's not a fretl..."

YEAH YEAH , I know. Quit yapping, please. But it's a start to get you in the ballpark until you get your "wish fulfilled" (maybe, someday).




"But how about acoustic bass?"

Why not turn off the pickups, use the Piezo only, do some post EQ of the DI track (no amp, if the active circuit of MODO Bass works, then turn up the bass), also reduce the slide noise to make things less "in your face". Additionally, if you consider it an "upright", finger picking, hand position the closest to the fretboard as possible.

Come on, experiment! Use the engine to it's full potential (if you invest the time to wrap your head around the concepts).




"But it's still not..."

Seriously... stop this! :evil:

You've got access to 14 basses(!) at this point (12 in v1.0!). You have access to functions that no other sample set can offer. Some of these old basses (like the Höfner Violin, which is in MODO Bass, or Gibson EB-1, which is not) were even built to be used in a stand-up position. Most of these basses are Solid Body, the "Violin" (Höfner 500/1, made most famous by Paul McCartney) is actually a hollow body (although, no sound holes). So toy around with that design. Although it doesn't have the modern 32" scale, but 30".

Post EQ (on the DI track) is also a thing. And there are tools like TDL Proximity to help you further shape the sound (early reflections!).

We are all still only scratching the surface. But instead of useful FR's (slightly more random attack length, velocity keyswitch layers, show "fret positions" while moving pickups for custom PU setups/bass builds), you (plural) want more and more and more content (basses, although a Steinberger and an Audiovox Model 736 Bass Fiddle might be of interest for science purposes!). I do understand that loading up presets is so much easier - less thinking and fiddling.

And what if one "fretless" bass is implemented? Would it even suffice, or be the correct one? Do ALL basses need to turn into Fretless? Or all solid bodies into "hollow body"? Under the hood, this is a synth - no question around it. But you (plural) prefer a Frankenstein's monster over a solid "limited" (in a good way) engine?

Or in other words, and in all seriousness - you want "Trillian"'s content and presets, with the usability and price of MODO Bass.

Learning a specific engine just isn't a thing these days anymore it seems. :shrug:





Also - a word about IKM's v1.5 presentation video:

"Imperial Bass - made out of the finest tone wood" - seriously?! :dog:

One out of 14 basses is a hollow body - in this case, "tone wood" might maybe have an influence (if we talk piezo or microphone techniques if this this had sound holes, not just electrical pickups). But solid bodies?

Gibson marketing, eh? Can I please get a "Rub your tone back" guitar body cleaner/polish/finish feature as well then? Maybe call it "new body" or "vintage body". Pretty please, strawberry on top! I even pay the 50 quids.

[/sarcasm]
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Peter - IK Multimedia
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5487 posts since 20 Oct, 2009

Postby Peter - IK Multimedia; Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:25 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

Thanks for the kind words as well as constructive criticism but as a guitar player for about 35 years I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that wood doesn't make a difference in tone. It may not be a HUGE difference to some and in certain cases (as you point out semi-hollow vs solid body etc) but wood does affect tone to varying degrees.

Also, we based that Imperial Bass off of a Fodera and they also are in the camp of different woods (commonly referred to as tone woods by most builders/companies/luthiers I've met, including the great Tom Doyle who built my favorite custom guitar about 28 years ago) affecting tone. So naturally we'd use similar verbiage to speak about the bass, this is their page about the different tone woods and combinations etc: http://www.fodera.com/tonewoods/
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SJ_Digriz
KVRAF
 
5144 posts since 4 Jul, 2001, from either Northern Idaho or Southern Canada, still trying to figure out which

Postby SJ_Digriz; Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:32 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

!!! TONEWOOD BEEF !!! Let's do it !!!! hehehehehe
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donkey tugger
Boss Lovin' DR
 
3951 posts since 14 Mar, 2002, from the grimness of yorkshire

Postby donkey tugger; Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:41 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

SJ_Digriz wrote:!!! TONEWOOD BEEF !!! Let's do it !!!! hehehehehe


You crazy people with your wood (errr...perhaps not..)

http://www.gretschguitars.com/gear/buil ... oof-finish

Brass for class., or something.
Compyfox
KVRAF
 
14159 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:36 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

SJ_Digriz wrote:!!! TONEWOOD BEEF !!! Let's do it !!!! hehehehehe


Sorry to put the wind out of the sails - but there is nothing to argue for me.



Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:Thanks for the kind words as well as constructive criticism but as a guitar player for about 35 years I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that wood doesn't make a difference in tone. It may not be a HUGE difference to some and in certain cases (as you point out semi-hollow vs solid body etc) but wood does affect tone to varying degrees.


If we take held note sustain into account, and how well a guitar stays in tune (depending on the humidity of a room the guitar was stored in), then yes.

But we talk "electric guitars", magnetic field interruption (induction, created from magnets responding to metal strings) converted into electric energy. Not "gut strings" (these days, nylon strings) or steel strings plus a hollow body - where so called "tone wood" (a made up marketing term IMO - but great marketing at that for collectors, no doubt!) - or actually the density/stiffness of wood - would make a significant difference in the tone of the guitar. Why? Because of the resonanting body. Things that can vibrate to amplify the sound (banjo's and resonator guitars would count to that as well).

So to me, there is no real argument in that direction.


The majority of the tone on an electric guitar (or bass for that matter) comes from the following:
- electronics used (Pickups, passive/active electronics), and how well it was set up (pick up height/relative position to the fretboard)
- the string type (flat/round/coated, thing/medium/thick)
- how well the guitar holds the tune / remains clean in tone (intonation, properly set up tuners, string height)
- and most important: how you play (your fingers do the magic - no matter how good or bad the guitar!)



The wood in this particular case (read: solid body) has a lesser significance (IMO and all that). Again, we talk electric guitars here, not acoustic!

Some sources:
'String-body coupling on electric guitars and its relation with the timbre of the instrument.'
Physicæ 9, 2010, pp. 24 - 29 Rodrigo Mateus Pereira, Albary Laibida Junior, Thiago Corrêa de Freitas. Tecnologia em Luteria, Universidade Federal do Paraná, Brazil.

Some videos:
https://youtu.be/Ortm29rWqE0 (INTHEBLUES Tone Podcast)
https://youtu.be/svmOQuNC1Uw (Will Gelvin)
https://youtu.be/1mH5hwLkxCI (DKGCustom)

And with measurements:
https://youtu.be/KTKfHkHZ6qQ (DKGCustom)
https://youtu.be/0Y_tyUjkkhA (Strandberg Guitars)

To give even more food for thought:
How come the now infamous "carboard guitar" sounds just as great as a 10k expensive guitar? (and it's just cardboard and epoxy - so basically a "plastic guitar"). Or what about the "Gittler Guitar", or even this bass just made out of pipes. What about Tin Can Guitars? Or the now infamous "Shovel Guitar" / Djent Stick? The Steinberger Bass is also made out of Carbon Fiber and is about 30% less mass than a regular guitar - it even doesn't have and headstock.

How come, that people can build outstanding sounding solid-body guitars out of alleged bad sounding scrap fire wood or plywood (multiplex)? (see various projects all over the web and Youtube)

How come, 50-60 year old guitars, no matter the condition of the guitar (dried up fredboard, cracks in the paint/body) dot not sound significantly different than an off-the-shelf guitar? Especially if both are setup properly, use the same brand/type of fresh strings. (though we do have to take aging of electronics into consideration)


As with music, this is a highly subjective topic. But to me, as audio engineer, I go by science and technology first, then gut feeling.

In fact, I have a End-90ies/very early 2000s STAGG Fender Stratocaster (type) in my possession. That was my first guitar. It was finally properly serviced and setup about 2 years ago, and only one pickup being switched out (middle, it was broken and nobody realized this) - the rest is stock. That thing cost me about 200EUR (the EUR was new around that time - adjusted to inflation that's about 260EUR - so a "good entry level" guitar), and I invested an additional 80 bucks for service (in fact, another 50 at a sh*t wanna-be-tech in the early days). Value basically 350-ish EUR (adjusted to inflation), but personal value way more than that of of course.

I gave this guitar to various professionals/session musicians to play - just for sh*ts and giggles. I wanted to know what they think. We ran that thing side by side to their Fender "vintage"/reissue Strats, same amp, same pedals. Guitars that were from the 70ies and 80ies. One of these guitars was a touring guitar, dinged up, etc - but great condition for it's age - setup was 2 years prior to mine, both our strings were fresh. And here is the kicker... those guitarists all preferred my "el cheapo, crap" STAGG guitar with a gloss painted neck compared to their rosewood/matte painted neck backside.

So what does that tell me? (rhetorical)




Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:Also, we based that Imperial Bass off of a Fodera and they also are in the camp of different woods (commonly referred to as tone woods by most builders/companies/luthiers I've met, including the great Tom Doyle who built my favorite custom guitar about 28 years ago) affecting tone. So naturally we'd use similar verbiage to speak about the bass, this is their page about the different tone woods and combinations etc: http://www.fodera.com/tonewoods/


And this just confirms the "marketing aspect" of certain luthiers and guitar builders. See my "Gibson Tone Rub" comment. People love to be sugar coated - so this is definitely great marketing (no argument about that). This is just how this industry works. Whoever has the most insane description, wins.

Unless you start to look under the hood and see what's really going on.
(and some of you might know my opinion about the "marketing voodoo" topic at this point)




Since I know how insanely heated this "tone wood" debate can get - I'll leave it here. Please make up your own mind about this topic. But this one sentence, was pure cringe for me in the v1.5 presentation video.


Now if you'll please excuse me... I'd like to get back at diving a bit deeper into the MODO Bass engine... or catch up on some sleep. Whatever comes first.

Please wake me up, once v1.6 hits with the FR ideas... (tapping, velocity keyswitches, etc)
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Peter - IK Multimedia
KVRAF
 
5487 posts since 20 Oct, 2009

Postby Peter - IK Multimedia; Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

Right, we're not going to agree fully on this obviously but we do actually overlap since we both use phrases that basically admit that it is "to some degree" not a be-all-end-all-night-and-day difference. And I use my formal education and experience in audio engineering and science in my assessment too, I'm not just a guitar player who is speaking in or falling for marketing terminology :)

But I do agree that your time is better served diving into MODO BASS but pace yourself as 1.6 isn't coming tomorrow - we just released 1.5. We will continue to evolve MODO BASS though, that's for sure.
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Compyfox
KVRAF
 
14159 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:31 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

I'm not expecting MODO BASS 1.6 by tomorrow, but I'm also not hoping to see v2.0 next.

Most important features to me currently (hopefully within the next 2-3 months though)

Workflow improvements:
- tapping mode (HoPo is limited to xyz semi-tones if I understood that right, slightly unlock that feature, done)
- 3 velocity keyswitch layers is a great idea for live performances (ghost notes, normal, ring out)
- having the "Slide Noise" knob on the overhauled Control Panel as well, is mandatory IMO
- hotkey (like ALT+ mouse) on Pickup Volume knob turns them on/off (Piezo mainly, pretty please)
- two knobs that a) alter the attack behavior (shifted from 0ms to 15ms, aka "random attack position"), and b) for having a probability (in percent) how often this happens
- definitely find a way to simplify creating custom basses without switching UI's constantly
- do we have access to "string smacks" (full hand, not thumb slap)? (I think not)


For custom sound design purposes:
- split coils switch and phase invert switch
- showing an overlay of "frets" once you move the pickups (for better placement)
- for the future (maybe, bonus!): changing the scale length (especially if all basses get access to 6 strings)


Then we can start to think about "fretless", though this needs:
- Glissando (overhauled legato slide, since there are no frets, it should be smooth not stepped, it also need to work for chords)
- overhauled Vibrato mode
- a "drift mode" how strong there is an offset to perfect pitch (current engine with frets) - just like with the "random attack position" mode, I can think of two knobs. One for the "pitch offset" (up/down) and the probability how often this would occur


I'm personally still for limiting certain basses to 5-string max though.

And before we tackle "MODO Bass Acoustic" (where the experience from MODO Bass Electric can flow into, because: optimized engine), we should DEFINITELY see a Chapman Stick. Maybe even a Steinberger Bass (non-wood solid body) and (if possible/affordable to compate) the Audiovox Model 736 Bass Fiddle (for science!). For additional science, maybe even one of the "metal bar bass" designs I linked above. If people want Uprights, Fretless and acoustic basses, why not that one as well (it is technically an E-Bass)?

MODO Bass Acoustic can then cover: Acoustic Basses (fretted/fretless), Upright, Broomstick, etc.


I think, if we'd see all of this in v1.6 or 1.7, then MODO Bass is pretty much perfect for everyone.





Regarding the "Tone Wood" topic - let's just agree that this is not(!) the holy grail that certain guitar builders and luthers make it out to be (and/or even insist on that) - in fact, even for certain guitarists. For solid bodies, the influence is a negligible factor (science is backing this up). For hollow bodies with sound holes, completely different story.


Been some rough days for me recently... just wanted to collect the FR's again for you to forward
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benjamind
KVRian
 
995 posts since 4 Aug, 2004, from Ain't tellin' ya...

Postby benjamind; Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:37 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

After for all these improvements, I'm still most excited about the equivalent e-guitar plugin MODO Guitars. Hopefully sometime next year. That would 2 years after the MODO Bass release.

Let's hope this is acheived.

After this happens - no more need for sampled e-guitars!!!
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Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
 
5557 posts since 12 May, 2008

Postby Echoes in the Attic; Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:01 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

benjamind wrote:After for all these improvements, I'm still most excited about the equivalent e-guitar plugin MODO Guitars. Hopefully sometime next year. That would 2 years after the MODO Bass release.

Let's hope this is acheived.

After this happens - no more need for sampled e-guitars!!!


I didn't buy MODO, though it seems great, but I would probably buy a guitar version. But I hope they figure out MPE first. Bass is usually mono so less important (though would still be nice and is the main reason I stick to kontakt or Trilian for bass). But for guitars, they really gotta support MPE I think, that would be great. But I would imagine they probably are developing a bunch of strumming stuff for that as well.
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benjamind
KVRian
 
995 posts since 4 Aug, 2004, from Ain't tellin' ya...

Postby benjamind; Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:56 pm Re: MODO BASS: Get ready for a new level of realism (1.5 update available now)

Echoes in the Attic wrote:I didn't buy MODO, though it seems great, but I would probably buy a guitar version. But I hope they figure out MPE first. Bass is usually mono so less important (though would still be nice and is the main reason I stick to kontakt or Trilian for bass). But for guitars, they really gotta support MPE I think, that would be great. But I would imagine they probably are developing a bunch of strumming stuff for that as well.


I bet a lot of this stuff has already been implemented. The trailer for MODO Bass says this was 8 years in the making, so I'm sure those 8 years, which is a very, very long time in software development, were used to build these instruments to a point where they could be released at any point in the near future...oh how I wish I were a fly on the wall :wink:
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