Arturia V Collection 6

[fmr]

Of course iOS apps are worth less, you can't load them in your daw.

Again, you are escaping the main subject. What we are discussing is the intrinsic value of things. How much did it cost to develop the desktop version, once the developer got the code for iOS (which came first)? Was it justifying asking like 5 times the price? Not IMO. If the DSP code is the same (which, until proven otherwise, I will consider it is), then what was done was just the I/O shell part for the different desktop plug-in formats (even the GUI stays the same).

Therefore, the developer is trying to gain in the desktop version what he is losing in the iOS version. Which raises the question: Why did he do it in the first place?

If, OTOH, he is not losing money with the iOS version, then he is just being greedy when asking so much (or simply attempting to place his instruments in a "premium" place, which is just as stupid, because it's not the price that makes an instrument premium).

In any of these two scenarios, a developer that acts like this is disconsidered for me. Developers have to starty being conscious that people look at the different prices asked FOR THE SAME THING, and think about it.

So, they will have to choose - go cheap and stay with iOS or go premium and start to ask what they think it's the real value no matter the platform. The way they are acting now is basically treating customers as idiots. I remember a time when developers asked much more for TDM plug-ins then they were asking for the same plug-ins in VST format (but then it was justified because the code was different - one was assembler code for DSP processors, while the other was common C or C+ code for regular CPUs). That argument was more and more contested, and now no developer asks more for AAX plug-ins, no matter if they are native or DSP based.

It's basically the same scenario here. They are simply milking the cow while they can. But in due time, they will become conscious that they simply killed their own market by choosing to go cheap. It happened many times in the past. I will be watching

[akeia]

... go cheap and stay with iOS or go premium and start to ask what they think it's the real value no matter the platform. The way they are acting now is basically treating customers as idiots.

A good IOS synth costs $15-30 nowadays. That roughly means a factor of 2-5x difference between platform prices. This difference is often argued as a result of massive software piracy on Win/OSX platforms. I see that as a valid argument. On IOS there is no piracy because it is prevented by Apple with all technical means possible. If it would be possible from a business perspective every synth vendor would love to lower prices and outsell the competition. There is no evil synth price cartel. Users pirating software are shooting themselves in the foot and hurting their community.

[DocAtlas]

Hearing a lot of 80's "signature" sounds there. But, dunno. I never really felt attracted much by pure FM synthesis. I think i always did well with "normal" subtractives with FM functionality.

I guess you could say the DX7 V is FM with subtractive functionality. While there are a lot of 'traditional FM' patches included, there are a lot that sound nothing like what we've come to expect from FM. When I first heard runors last year that Arturia was going to do a DX7 emulation, I really wondered why they would bother. Now I get it. I can't afford the upgrade at the moment, but until I do, the sounds are there in Analog Lab, and I can explore the editing features in the demo.

[fmr]

... go cheap and stay with iOS or go premium and start to ask what they think it's the real value no matter the platform. The way they are acting now is basically treating customers as idiots.

A good IOS synth costs $15-30 nowadays. That roughly means a factor of 2-5x difference between platform prices. This difference is often argued as a result of massive software piracy on Win/OSX platforms. I see that as a valid argument. On IOS there is no piracy because it is prevented by Apple with all technical means possible. If it would be possible from a business perspective every synth vendor would love to lower prices and outsell the competition. There is no evil synth price cartel. Users pirating software are shooting themselves in the foot and hurting their community.

Really? It seems you need to revise your aithmetic lessons. 30 * 5 = 150, which is the price being asked AT LAUNCH TIME (later price will be even higher). Do the math. And I can give you many other examples, if you want.

Regarding piracy, that's bullshit. Another excuse, and again, treating users like idiots. If you choose to play that role, it's up to you. Piracy is the argument of losers. And if they are being pirated, why do they bother to still release the products AT FIVE TIMES THE PRICE?

It's amazing how piracy "affects" so much some developers while others seem to not be affected AT ALL.

[beely]

You price a product according to the market it goes into, not the effort of writing the code...

If you can't get a return on an iOS app at the price points they sell for, you don't do it.

If you try to sell an iOS synth at the same price as a desktop plugin, it won't sell - it would be like launching a desktop plugin software synth at $2000...

For me, I don't regard iOS apps as proper musical instruments, they are more like little fun playthings for me, so the value is about right for the utility I get out of them, but everyone's equations will balance differently for them.

It's nothing at all to do with piracy.

[fmr]

You price a product according to the market it goes into, not the effort of writing the code...

If you can't get a return on an iOS app at the price points they sell for, you don't do it.

If you try to sell an iOS synth at the same price as a desktop plugin, it won't sell - it would be like launching a desktop plugin software synth at $2000...

For me, I don't regard iOS apps as proper musical instruments, they are more like little fun playthings for me, so the value is about right for the utility I get out of them, but everyone's equations will balance differently for them.

It's nothing at all to do with piracy.

I agree that if they would price te product at the same price they do for desktop it would not sell. But IT'S THEIR PROBLEM. They have to make an option: Go cheap or go premium.

Lamborghini and Maseratti sell very expensive cars. They could probably sell cheaper cars, and have a broader user base. But they choose to go premium and stay with the higher prices.

Other labels that compete in other markets also have sport cars - but they sell them much cheaper than Lamborghini and Maseratti. It's the price they pay. So, developers that want to stay in iOS may charge a little more for their plug-ins - but they can't expect to be regarded as premium developers, once they chose to go cheap, therefore, they can't ask what other developers ask, IMO. Not if they sell THE SAME PRODUCT as a "cheapo" in another platform. The same product cannot be a toy in one platform and a premium synth in another.

[beely]

The same product cannot be a toy in one platform and a premium synth in another.

It's not the same product. One is an iOS app that runs on i-devices or in an i-device host like Garageband. It cannot be used inside a DAW (it can be used external to a DAW with some faff, of course).

The other is a plugin for your desktop DAW with much more resources and the convenience that a DAW plugin provides.

The fact that they us the some of the same code to generate audio isn't actually that relevant.

Using your car analogy (though these are never good as they are physical goods so the variables are different), it's like Lamborgini selling a sports car for £1,000,000, and a Lamborgini go-kart for £50,000, despite using some of the same engineering components, materials and design efficiencies...

Different products, different price points, different markets.

it's quite common for instanc for a company to make a synth that sells for £1.5k, and to make a low cost £600 version, that uses the same code, th same engine, the same chips. Maybe with some features commented out of the code. Efficiencies of manufacture and development, different products, but the same code internally.

What happens internally isn't relevant - the market, features and price point is...

[akeia]

Really? It seems you need to revise your aithmetic lessons. 30 * 5 = 150, which is the price being asked AT LAUNCH TIME (later price will be even higher). Do the math. And I can give you many other examples, if you want.

It seems you need to shop smarter. Who cares about official asking prices? I see softsynths at 100% between $79 (f.e. Synthmaster One) and $120 (f.e. Thorn). 3 month a year a lot of synths at 50% sales. You can get 10%-15% discount regularly at internet discounters. As a real world example I paid $20 for Waldorf Nave on IOS and $89 for Nave Win/OSX. More extreme bargains to have if you buy used.

[Dewdman42]

Komplete is another example, the upgrade price even on sale is too much to justify upgrading every new release. I have had to skip at least every other release and sometimes longer before it became the value that works for me. Looking at what NI has been doing the last couple years I am hard pressed to see myself upgrading it yet again, even on sale, unless they add something truly revolutionary, but they haven’t done that in years. More likely they will come out with kontakt6 and I will feel compelled to update k6 and will find that the eventual sale upgrade price on komplete 12 or 13 will be better value including k6 and some other toys, most of which I don’t need or even really want that much.

Same with Arturia, I think the V collection is killer value, on sale, for the first purchase you get a dozen+ nicely implemented synths, and a couple of them are pretty cool. A bit of it is nostalgia, being able to experience a synclavier for example. But that being said the value of the upgrade is not even remotely close. Do I really need the fair light when I already have suncalvier? Do I really need a buchla? Well not for the upgrade price and maybe not even for the alleged eventual sale upgrade price. Maybe v7 on sale when there a couple more things I will think about it.

[fmr]

Really? It seems you need to revise your aithmetic lessons. 30 * 5 = 150, which is the price being asked AT LAUNCH TIME (later price will be even higher). Do the math. And I can give you many other examples, if you want.

It seems you need to shop smarter. Who cares about official asking prices? I see softsynths at 100% between $79 (f.e. Synthmaster One) and $120 (f.e. Thorn). 3 month a year a lot of synths at 50% sales. You can get 10%-15% discount regularly at internet discounters. As a real world example I paid $20 for Waldorf Nave on IOS and $89 for Nave Win/OSX. More extreme bargains to have if you buy used.

Even a "smart shopper" as you bought THE SAME PRODUCT for more than four times the price you paid for the iOS version. ON SALE. Seems you not that smarter, after all.

[wagtunes]

Really? It seems you need to revise your aithmetic lessons. 30 * 5 = 150, which is the price being asked AT LAUNCH TIME (later price will be even higher). Do the math. And I can give you many other examples, if you want.

It seems you need to shop smarter. Who cares about official asking prices? I see softsynths at 100% between $79 (f.e. Synthmaster One) and $120 (f.e. Thorn). 3 month a year a lot of synths at 50% sales. You can get 10%-15% discount regularly at internet discounters. As a real world example I paid $20 for Waldorf Nave on IOS and $89 for Nave Win/OSX. More extreme bargains to have if you buy used.

Even a "smart shopper" as you bought THE SAME PRODUCT for more than four times the price you paid for the iOS version. ON SALE. Seems you not that smarter, after all.

I'm not quite sure I understand this. An IOS app doesn't do me any good. I can't use it in my DAW. I can't make music with it the way I want to. So I'm paying that extra amount of money to be able to use something that fits my needs. An IOS app does absolutely nothing for me.

[jdoo]

No dog in the fight over iOS vs. plug-ins… but a clarification, for those who don’t know. There have been changes over the past couple of years, and integration capabilities that alter the amount of integration between iOS instruments and a DAW. I have been using iOS instruments for years, and until the past six months, thought there was little to no way of integrating them into Logic Pro (my DAW of choice).

I picked up an iConnect MIDI4+ several months ago, and now, route MIDI and audio to/from my iPad Pro through my other hardware and software synths, as well as to/from Logic Pro. It’s complex, the interface can be hugely frustrating (many give up on it - saying it’s whack) - but once you have things situated — it is possible to have iOS instruments integrated into my Logic Pro compositions, not so much different than integrating my HW synths.

Sorry for the divergence - but I saw a couple of references to no-go for iOS and felt compelled to share.

To the OP… I am on the fence over whether to upgrade or not. While it would be great, to add the DX-7 and few other synths to my V Collection 5 instruments… most all the patches (certainly all 400+ of the DX-7 patches) are included in the Analog Lab update (which VC 5 owners got free, already). Only drawback is not having complete control of the sounds - which is softened by having 15+ of the modifiers pre-mapped to my Arturia hardware controller already). Sorry for the lengthy post… *yawn* too early in the day here, in California…

Joe

[beely]

THE SAME PRODUCT

Capitalising stuff doesn't make it any less wrong.

It's clearly not the same product, it's a different product, in a different format, for a different market, at a different price point.

That fact that it may compile from (more or less) the same source code or at least the engine is neither here nor there. If it was the same product (genuinely) you could just buy the iOS version at the cheaper price, then load it into your DAW.

Of course, you can't do this, because it's *not* "the same product", and the different platforms require different frameworks, wrappers, and testing. It may be the same synth engine, but that's not the same thing as the same product.

[wagtunes]

No dog in the fight over iOS vs. plug-ins… but a clarification, for those who don’t know. There have been changes over the past couple of years, and integration capabilities that alter the amount of integration between iOS instruments and a DAW. I have been using iOS instruments for years, and until the past six months, thought there was little to no way of integrating them into Logic Pro (my DAW of choice).

I picked up an iConnect MIDI4+ several months ago, and now, route MIDI and audio to/from my iPad Pro through my other hardware and software synths, as well as to/from Logic Pro. It’s complex, the interface can be hugely frustrating (many give up on it - saying it’s whack) - but once you have things situated — it is possible to have iOS instruments integrated into my Logic Pro compositions, not so much different than integrating my HW synths.

Sorry for the divergence - but I saw a couple of references to no-go for iOS and felt compelled to share.

To the OP… I am on the fence over whether to upgrade or not. While it would be great, to add the DX-7 and few other synths to my V Collection 5 instruments… most all the patches (certainly all 400+ of the DX-7 patches) are included in the Analog Lab update (which VC 5 owners got free, already). Only drawback is not having complete control of the sounds - which is softened by having 15+ of the modifiers pre-mapped to my Arturia hardware controller already). Sorry for the lengthy post… *yawn* too early in the day here, in California…

Joe

Well, some of us don't want the hassle. Besides, I don't even own an IOS device and have no desire to buy one.

[beely]

No dog in the fight over iOS vs. plug-ins… but a clarification, for those who don’t know.

This is to what I was referring when I said earlier you could kind of use iOS instruments with a DAW with some faff.

Still, plugins are far more valuable to me in my day-to-day audio use. I have a few iOS synths, and really, they are just fun novelties for the most part, I don't really use them. Animoog is the only one I like because the note expression and side-to-side finger vibrato is something I want in "real" instruments as I love the expressiveness of it...