Arrangement view in Ableton Live is a nightmare! Any tips?

[ozinga]

Mostly same stuff keeps me away although I like most of the stuff but unable to work completely because of those. Which are:
Playhead problem. Need an option to keep it where I want. I select a location and edit a clip which starts before the selection and if I stop and start again playhead goes to the beginning of the clip which most of the time what I don't want.
Unable to select non consecutive clips notes?
Unable to lengthen, shorten, fade etc multiple clips
Non smart duplicate: which is for example if a clip is ending just before the next bar or next beat common sense is if I duplicate it it should start from the beginning of the next bar/beat not adjacent to the first one which %99 of the time makes no sense.Same goes for midi notes Selecting the complete bar range is an extra unnecessary step.
These may not be important for long time live only users or for people mostly use the session view but for people coming from programs that have advanced arrange page like Cubase Logic S1 it really is hard to get used to.

Oz

[J-909]

Mostly same stuff keeps me away although I like most of the stuff but unable to work completely because of those. Which are:
Playhead problem. Need an option to keep it where I want. I select a location and edit a clip which starts before the selection and if I stop and start again playhead goes to the beginning of the clip which most of the time what I don't want.
Unable to select non consecutive clips notes?
Unable to lengthen, shorten, fade etc multiple clips
Non smart duplicate: which is for example if a clip is ending just before the next bar or next beat common sense is if I duplicate it it should start from the beginning of the next bar/beat not adjacent to the first one which %99 of the time makes no sense.Same goes for midi notes Selecting the complete bar range is an extra unnecessary step.
These may not be important for long time live only users or for people mostly use the session view but for people coming from programs that have advanced arrange page like Cubase Logic S1 it really is hard to get used to.

Oz

+100!!


Specially this one (too many things and I forget when I write):

Unable to lengthen, shorten, fade etc multiple clips

[J-909]

I've been an Ableton Live user since version 4 or 5. My first experience with Cubase was with Cubase 8.5. That being said, I've NEVER been a fan of Live's Arrangement View. I've always thought that was the part of the program that seemed the most neglected, and the very short time that I've been using Cubase makes Live's Arrangement View seem just that much more cumbersome. I will admit that Live 10's subtle improvements in the Arrangement make the experience a little more bearable, but for me personally, Cubase is just a lot more fluid and effortless. As a matter of fact, I actually felt like Live's Arrangement was completely unusable when I started working with it again with Live 10's beta. I couldn't believe how hard it was to get used to again, but once you get used to it, it isn't that bad.

Still, Cubase is much better than Live's Arrangement View. It's not even close.

+1 too

[J-909]

Playhead behavior is one of the thing Live give me frustration. You also need to make midi clip left edge longer to keep editing while auditioning from that point.

Exactly! That's another of the issues..

Isn't this midi-chase, introduced in Live 10?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrW5i2QoUc4

No mate, it's not what we say. We're not talking about playing halfway the clip but the fact that as soon as you click on a clip the playhead moves to its beginning (something unavoidable). It makes you not be able to listen to the content right before the clip while changing things of the proper clip. That makes you not be able to listen to changes in the context of the song.
How it should be: You place the playhead somewhere and whatever you do it should stay there until you decide otherwise.

[J-909]

I can't compare to CBase, never having used it but I can recco three tips to improving your dexterity in Arrange view(if you are stuck only using one DAW) : practice - practice - practice

best

I think most of what you're complaining about is just a matter of slowing down and learning the way Live does things. It is quite different form Cubase. It all makes sense in the end.

That said, the arranger is a visually confusing, hot mess. And to me, the groups within groups just made it more so. Note that you never see demos with more than a few tracks visible. There's a reason for that.

I understand your points: "Just get used to it"
IMHO it doesn't work that way. It is not a matter of not liking the distribution of shortcuts, it's about limits of a software. I feel Live is very limited (it has widened a bit in 10, not having scroll zooming before was indecent..). Things are to be done in many steps one by one carefully, which kills your creativity. Just cutting a note into some pieces to try a variation makes you write every part by itself -> not useful.

Cheers anyway

[tooneba]

Playhead behavior is one of the thing Live give me frustration. You also need to make midi clip left edge longer to keep editing while auditioning from that point.

Exactly! That's another of the issues..

Isn't this midi-chase, introduced in Live 10?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrW5i2QoUc4

No mate, it's not what we say. We're not talking about playing halfway the clip but the fact that as soon as you click on a clip the playhead moves to its beginning (something unavoidable). It makes you not be able to listen to the content right before the clip while changing things of the proper clip. That makes you not be able to listen to changes in the context of the song.
How it should be: You place the playhead somewhere and whatever you do it should stay there until you decide otherwise.

Indeed. Live forces you to Consolidate with blank clip, or disable Loop function and extend left edge of clip.

[liquidsound]

I can't compare to CBase, never having used it but I can recco three tips to improving your dexterity in Arrange view(if you are stuck only using one DAW) : practice - practice - practice

best

I think most of what you're complaining about is just a matter of slowing down and learning the way Live does things. It is quite different form Cubase. It all makes sense in the end.

That said, the arranger is a visually confusing, hot mess. And to me, the groups within groups just made it more so. Note that you never see demos with more than a few tracks visible. There's a reason for that.

I understand your points: "Just get used to it"
IMHO it doesn't work that way. It is not a matter of not liking the distribution of shortcuts, it's about limits of a software. I feel Live is very limited (it has widened a bit in 10, not having scroll zooming before was indecent..). Things are to be done in many steps one by one carefully, which kills your creativity. Just cutting a note into some pieces to try a variation makes you write every part by itself -> not useful.

Cheers anyway

it seems to me you having a bad date...
Go back to your lovely wife then.

[DJ Warmonger]

Unable to select non consecutive clips notes?

Unable to lengthen, shorten, fade etc multiple clips

Noob, no skillz, get gud

You can select them with [ctrl], as in any other app.

which is for example if a clip is ending just before the next bar or next beat common sense is if I duplicate it it should start from the beginning of the next bar/beat not adjacent to the first one which %99 of the time makes no sense.Same goes for midi notes Selecting the complete bar range is an extra unnecessary step.

Uhm, select whole bars then?

Playhead problem. Need an option to keep it where I want. I select a location and edit a clip which starts before the selection and if I stop and start again playhead goes to the beginning of the clip which most of the time what I don't want.

Read the F manual, bro:

To continue playback from the position where it last stopped, rather than from the insert
marker, hold down the [Shift] modifier while pressing the space bar.

[ozinga]

Unable to select non consecutive clips notes?

Unable to lengthen, shorten, fade etc multiple clips

Noob, no skillz, get gud

You can select them with [ctrl], as in any other app.

which is for example if a clip is ending just before the next bar or next beat common sense is if I duplicate it it should start from the beginning of the next bar/beat not adjacent to the first one which %99 of the time makes no sense.Same goes for midi notes Selecting the complete bar range is an extra unnecessary step.

Uhm, select whole bars then?

Playhead problem. Need an option to keep it where I want. I select a location and edit a clip which starts before the selection and if I stop and start again playhead goes to the beginning of the clip which most of the time what I don't want.

Read the F manual, bro:

To continue playback from the position where it last stopped, rather than from the insert
marker, hold down the [Shift] modifier while pressing the space bar.

None of the things you wrote are solutions. Bro

Show me how you select 2 clips without selecting one or more in the middle.

Show me how you fade out two or more clips at the same time.

Show me how you shorten multiple clips on the same track at the same time

I don't want the playhead to start where I stopped. I know how to do that which has nothing to do what I say. I want it to start where it started the last time.

I really would like to know.

And finally yes have to select the whole bar/beat. I know that is what I wrote. all I am saying is there is a faster and easier way.

[Trancit]

What are you complaining about...

Get used to how things work in Live or leave it if you cannot...

Live isn´t Cubase (or any other) and otherway round...
Live does many things better than Cubase (or any other) and Cubase (or any other) does many things better than Live... that´s how it is and probably ever will be...

Every DAW has it´s strength and weakness and no DAW will turn into another one...

[tooneba]

I rather read these unexpected frustration as things which are uncommon among daws.

[ozinga]

I am not complaining about Live or anything. Someone wrote the shortcomings of arrange page according to him/her and I contributed. Which part of it is complaining? So we shouldn't have this subject at all? Either use Live as it is or don't write your opinion or ask for future functions? How is this different than people asking for groups in groups since forever and have it in V10? Since this subject is about Lİve's arrange page I think as a forum member I have the right to write what I think is missing from my point of view which does not have to have any importance for anybody and does not need to create a defense mechanism.
I don't need to leave Live as I said I already don't use it fully at it's current state. That is one proof that I am not complaining
All I said was I like the concept very much and have it since V1 and play with it from time to time and would love to use it fully if these functions were available. That's it. . As you said different DAWs have different strengths. DAWs progress by copying so what I write would very well be future request but again not complaining. I wrote what I feel and left it there then someone comes out calling me a noob and tries to convince me that those functions are there which are not. And I asked him to show. That's it. My answers to him might sounded like complaining which are not. Only frustration to someone who half reads what you write and tries to be a smart ass.

Oz

[Distorted Horizon]

Any tips towards worklfow?

Ditch Live. Reaper is nice, has that grab n drag to change the size of loops.

BTW: Something similar happens to me with Bitwig but haven't faced it much yet

In BWS I double click the item I want to make longer, then grab the right edge of the loop and drag it longer.

[J-909]

None of the things you wrote are solutions. Bro

Show me how you select 2 clips without selecting one or more in the middle.

Show me how you fade out two or more clips at the same time.

Show me how you shorten multiple clips on the same track at the same time

I don't want the playhead to start where I stopped. I know how to do that which has nothing to do what I say. I want it to start where it started the last time.

I really would like to know.

And finally yes have to select the whole bar/beat. I know that is what I wrote. all I am saying is there is a faster and easier way.

This!!

[J-909]

What are you complaining about...

Get used to how things work in Live or leave it if you cannot...

Live isn´t Cubase (or any other) and otherway round...
Live does many things better than Cubase (or any other) and Cubase (or any other) does many things better than Live... that´s how it is and probably ever will be...

Every DAW has it´s strength and weakness and no DAW will turn into another one...

I am considering leaving (I might not be able to for compatibility with mates'work) but first I wanted to ask about efficient workflow here, that's why I'm writing. There's always little tricks that I can incorporate to my workflow, that's what I'm looking for.