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whyterabbyt
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25878 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:50 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

fluffy_little_something wrote:Well, again, I did not make up what they said about brain differences. But what they said might explain why men dominate in many areas


No, it wont. And the reason for that is that it would be a single factor untested in isolation from other factors. A scientific explanation, undertaken by folk who actually understand science in the first place, would be done on the basis of testing with all all other factors eliminated or accounted for.

In other words, the skills of male versus female chefs would need to be compared on the basis of their skills as chefs, not on the basis of their relative success 'dominating an area.' Especially whenother factors, specifically social and cultural factors could (and most certainly do) determine the applicability of the area to the perception of success and the capability of achieving success.

In other words, attempting to handwave away the success of women in a male-defined and male-controlled occupation as 'brain differences' is ignorant at best, and inherently dishonest at worst.
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Nielzie
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8865 posts since 28 May, 2005, from Netherlands

Postby Nielzie; Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:19 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

Brain no, hormones, could be as it's the major difference between the sexes.. dunno. It's all about balance in this world, which is good :D
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fluffy_little_something
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11393 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:03 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

Sure, it is a topic that is still being investigated.
But I think political correctness is more of a problem than supposed stereotyping, sexism, and "brainwashing" of little girls and boys. In the West people can study and do whatever they want to. The times when kids were pushed into certain disciplines and professions are more or less over, yet the preferences continue.

To me it is obvious and natural that men and women are different in many ways, one can even see on a brain scan whether a brain is male or female, different structure, different brain activity. It is the result of evolution, not the fabrication of supposedly sexist men.
When I went to college, there were 4 guys and about four times as many women in my class. We were all studying exactly the same thing (BA in technical translation). Interestingly, myself and another guy were the best of the class, which is statistically significant. The more technical the individual courses were, the poorer the women did relative to us guys. Women however were clearly superior at live interpreting. So, I observed it myself for years, it is not some stereotype.

We are different and that's a good thing. There is nothing wrong about one sex being more interested in and better at this, and the other sex being more interested in and better at that.
Plus, there are exceptions of course, there are female producers and engineers, as well male nurses and interior designers.
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skipscada
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1418 posts since 22 Oct, 2004, from Schmocation

Postby skipscada; Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:40 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

Interesting views here: http://www.dazeddigital.com/music/artic ... e-frontier

Long story short: things have developed a lot over the last 2-3 decades, but women are stil "the other" in the music biz. So there's still reason to make an effort to make women more visible in the world electronic music.
deastman
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6696 posts since 6 Aug, 2003, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby deastman; Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:42 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

fluffy_little_something wrote:Sure, it is a topic that is still being investigated.
But I think political correctness is more of a problem than supposed stereotyping, sexism, and "brainwashing" of little girls and boys. In the West people can study and do whatever they want to. The times when kids were pushed into certain disciplines and professions are more or less over, yet the preferences continue.

To me it is obvious and natural that men and women are different in many ways, one can even see on a brain scan whether a brain is male or female, different structure, different brain activity. It is the result of evolution, not the fabrication of supposedly sexist men.
When I went to college, there were 4 guys and about four times as many women in my class. We were all studying exactly the same thing (BA in technical translation). Interestingly, myself and another guy were the best of the class, which is statistically significant. The more technical the individual courses were, the poorer the women did relative to us guys. Women however were clearly superior at live interpreting. So, I observed it myself for years, it is not some stereotype.

We are different and that's a good thing. There is nothing wrong about one sex being more interested in and better at this, and the other sex being more interested in and better at that.
Plus, there are exceptions of course, there are female producers and engineers, as well male nurses and interior designers.

There is way too much bias and bigotry in this post to even begin to unpack it. I’ll just say that you and another guy in your class were supposedly more technically proficient than the other members of your class, but what about the other two guys? Or does their performance not support your cherry-picked agenda, so you’ll gloss over that? Nice anecdote, anyway, which totally proves why there are less women in technical fields.

Actually, come to think of it, your entire attitude here does perfectly illustrate the point: rather than acknowledge any sort of discrimination against women in education and industry, you dismiss them as being less capable, less interested, their brains work differently, and anyone who disagrees is an example of political correctness attempting to brainwash our children. You’re so far down your own rabbit hole that you can’t even conceive of gender-based discrimination being a real and significant factor. Of course you’re entitled to that opinion, but the evidence is not on your side.
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
25878 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:00 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

fluffy_little_something wrote:But I think political correctness is more of a problem than supposed stereotyping, sexism, and "brainwashing" of little girls and boys.


Of course you do.

Its interesting; Im sure most racists, homophobes and bigots would say something similar; its pretty much de rigeur to dismiss any attempt to counter all of those sort of thing as the worst human-categorisation crime of all, political correctness.
Or as some people know it, 'not being racists, hompohobes, sexists and bigots'.

In the West people can study and do whatever they want to.


No, not necessarily. In reality, social and cultural barriers continue to exist even if some people have struggled their way past them.

The times when kids were pushed into certain disciplines and professions are more or less over, yet the preferences continue.


No, it really isnt.

To me it is obvious and natural that men and women are different in many ways, one can even see on a brain scan whether a brain is male or female, different structure, different brain activity.


Yes, for some people, any excuse of difference will be indeed be leveraged to justify treating people differently.
Because, of course, the thing that isnt shown on a 'brain scan' is what correlation any supposed structural change has on one's capability of carrying out any task and its social or cultural restriction to a particular gender.

It is the result of evolution, not the fabrication of supposedly sexist men.


No, people's brains arent a fabrication of 'supposedly sexist men'. But the still-existent social and cultural restrictions are definitely a fabrication.

There is nothing wrong about one sex being more interested in and better at this, and the other sex being more interested in and better at that.


No, there's nothing wrong with that thing happening, on the assumption that it naturally would. There is something wrong with social and cultural behaviours which ensure it happens, though.
And despite what you claim, that's still the case, in the West, and elsewhere in the world. You're proving that right now, just by making this post.
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Harry_HH
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2568 posts since 4 Aug, 2006, from Helsinki

Postby Harry_HH; Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:25 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

One facet to the subject: its only matter of time (or no time), when more than half of the project studio producers are women/girls. The number of record label/big studio producers is going down, anyway, not matter if they are men or women. That´s why I would rather see this from the music enthusiaist perspective, not from the perspective of "music producers".
In my country (Finland) more than half of the new music artist are women, and most of the young newcomers produce their own music, or at least co-produce it/do the basic tracks in their home studios, and play at least one instrument.
Its about the same situation, than with the guys in the late 80´s. The women will take over by the end of
this decade.
If we have to talk about the equality challenge in Scandinavia, I think that rather men than women are in the role of underdog today: you just have to take a look at the domestic top 10 list, and you will see, who´s songs/performances/productions rules there. :phones:
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vurt
addled muppet weed
 
35409 posts since 25 Jan, 2003, from through the looking glass

Postby vurt; Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:08 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

jesus effing christ???
i appear to have travelled back in time to the 1950s, only to find there was internet back then? the history i was taught in school was clearly lies!!!
funky lime
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1093 posts since 17 Sep, 2002

Postby funky lime; Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:20 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

"Why won't women come around!?"

*proceeds to mansplain gender politics*
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fluffy_little_something
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11393 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:29 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

Regarding the previous posts, I don't share those views.

"racists, homophobes and bigots"? I am none of those things either, just like I don't have anything against women, I am actually very happy they are clearly different from men, else I might as well kill myself as they are the best thing in life.
Yes, of course I treat different people differently. I surely don't treat women like men, I treat them much better.
Political correctness does play a role as many people today have the ideal of "natural equality" of the sexes. And they won't accept any findings that don't match that ideal. Technical inclination is really a harmless topic in this respect. I am also on another, huge message board and some people there post things where even I understand that the ideal of equality makes sense as giving it up might have major consequences for society.

Why draw a line between culture and nature? Culture has not begun two hundred years ago, but tens of thousands of years ago. Roles have been the same up until recently, and it probably is in our genes, not just a matter of mere tradition that can be broken at will. Even our primate relatives have roles that are close to traditional human roles. And those roles are also tied to physiology. There are interesting articles on sexual dimorphism.

I read that here in Portugal 80-90% of medical students are female, similar situation with biology. Both disciplines seem to attract women, and I suppose it is because both are about helping and caring, specifically curing, both humans and animals, but also the environment.
Physics, engineering etc. are still overwhelmingly male disciplines, despite universities' efforts to attract female students.

Regarding my class, the other two guys were also good, although there were two or three female students that were better then them.
There were two drop-outs during those four years, both female, and in the final exams a couple of women didn't pass.
I occasionally studied with two of the women, and they just didn't seem to have the same patience and interest when dealing with technical details and literature.

"less capable, less interested, their brains work differently"
I did not say "less capable". I think it is about preference and interest. Women could of course be just as good in technical disciplines (after all, they are probably slightly more intelligent than men, on average) - if they wanted to. But many don't seem to want to, and not only because of society's indoctrination, I think it is in women's nature to care more about other things instead.

Regarding production, I think the modern DAW environment is much more appealing to women than a studio full of hardware was in the past.
Still, women are much more present in singing and songwriting (i.e. the musical side) than in production, the more technical side of it.
deastman
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6696 posts since 6 Aug, 2003, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby deastman; Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:39 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

The problem is not at the university level. Research shows that roughly between the age of 12-18, girls are systematically discouraged from pursuing their interests in math and science. For example, studies found that male high school math teachers would consistently call on male students to answer questions while ignoring the female students.
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MFXxx
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2824 posts since 27 Mar, 2010, from UK

Postby MFXxx; Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:54 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

Is it more probable that women are cracking on and doing it!? Where as blokes loiter around the internet and forums searching for it and talking about it! @:)
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woggle
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1521 posts since 23 Nov, 2012

Postby woggle; Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:55 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

deastman wrote:The problem is not at the university level. Research shows that roughly between the age of 12-18, girls are systematically discouraged from pursuing their interests in math and science. For example, studies found that male high school math teachers would consistently call on male students to answer questions while ignoring the female students.


as I pointed out earlier - we did the stats for the faculty I taught in and that was the case. The evidence is overwhelming for gender roles being culturally determined.
(interestingly it was difficult to overcome the bias many staff had to understanding this - they still wanted to act as if the bias in student enrollments occurred withing the faculty. Evidence based policy has to overcome many biases as well )
There is also evidence for all sorts of differences in neural systems based on sex. But none of those differences should impact in any way on public policy because the functional consequence of biological differences is meaningless at the individual level ie the stats have no predictive value in terms of function at the level of an individual.
But more than that the liberation of women is just as good for most men as it is for most women. Breaking down the entrenched system of inequalities is great for everyone other than the relatively small percentage of people (mostly men) who benefit from those inequalities.
Last edited by woggle on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fluffy_little_something
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11393 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:56 am Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

In the US?
I even remember my high school days (which is a miracle :hihi: ) and I think I we would have all noticed if that had been going on in our class. I don't remember such preference. Actually, I was happy when my math teacher ignored me :hihi:
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Hink
Rad Grandad
 
26847 posts since 5 Sep, 2003, from Downeast Maine

Postby Hink; Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:01 pm Re: Women producers!! Where are you!

with as gender neutral as screen names are it is possible there could be more women here than you know.
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