How to get that super low sub hip-hop bass to sit in mix

[CosmicClayton]

Well low end is a very sacred place in the mix. There's only 40 or so hZ between an octave where as 40 hZ up at 10,000 hZ won't even start to get you to the next semitone. Which means every little difference in pitch and tuning is critical. Basically what I might do is cut out the low end from you 808 below 100 hZ or so. Then get out a synth and send a sine wave out and have it match the note pattern of the 808. That way you know you are just getting one clean low end note for the low end on your 808. Then I would cut out the low end of the kick. Depending on the sound you need synthesize up a sine wave with a nice punchy pitch envelope on it, or find a kick drum you like with a very tight, clean low end. Then layer in the low end of your new kick in with the mid-top end of the orignal kick. Also make sure like you said that nothing else is adding low end. Make sure everything is highpassed around 100 hZ or so, reverbs, distortions, everything. That way you know you only have 2 things in the low end, the kick and the sine wave sub. Use multiband transient shapers to keep the shape you want in the low end. Perhaps notch or cut out some frequencies from the kick that are very important to the 808. Also take a look at what's happening around 200-300 hZ, that can be a bad spot for mud and cloudiness.

[Jonny Quest]

I'm struggling to hear the kick drum ... there seems to be a lot (too much) going on in the same frequency range.

Phasing... too much comp. it’s sitting too low in the frequency (down around and below 50, which is going to be a wash without specialized processing), and everything is fed through the same reverb. You have to separate it out and give it special attention without over producing it.

OP--I don't disagree with all the criticisms, especially this.

So a few follow-ups...

What sort of specialized processing? When I listen and look at pro Hip Hop tracks, those subs are there that low, yet don't seem to clog up the mix.

What is causing the phase issues? Panning? Too much widening on certain items?

The only added reverb is on the vox, all else is in the samples or the synth engine for a part.

I am struggling. so thanks for thoughts

[fluffy_little_something]

I think this plugin might help you
http://www.alexhilton.net/A1AUDIO/index ... reocontrol

[DJ Warmonger]

What is causing the phase issues?

Phase, I assume. If the kick nad sub are not in phase, they will cancel each other out.

Seriously, to deal with subs take spectrum analyzer and oscilloscope. There's no rocket science, just set the level right and align the phase.

[Jonny Quest]

Well low end is a very sacred place in the mix. There's only 40 or so hZ between an octave where as 40 hZ up at 10,000 hZ won't even start to get you to the next semitone. Which means every little difference in pitch and tuning is critical. Basically what I might do is cut out the low end from you 808 below 100 hZ or so. Then get out a synth and send a sine wave out and have it match the note pattern of the 808. That way you know you are just getting one clean low end note for the low end on your 808. Then I would cut out the low end of the kick. Depending on the sound you need synthesize up a sine wave with a nice punchy pitch envelope on it, or find a kick drum you like with a very tight, clean low end. Then layer in the low end of your new kick in with the mid-top end of the orignal kick. Also make sure like you said that nothing else is adding low end. Make sure everything is highpassed around 100 hZ or so, reverbs, distortions, everything. That way you know you only have 2 things in the low end, the kick and the sine wave sub. Use multiband transient shapers to keep the shape you want in the low end. Perhaps notch or cut out some frequencies from the kick that are very important to the 808. Also take a look at what's happening around 200-300 hZ, that can be a bad spot for mud and cloudiness.

Thanks1

[a_Scientist]

CosmicClayton explained it all perhaps. To bass sit in the mix, mix should be prepared for it. There will be much less to do, maybe.
Of course don't use reverb on the bass so it won't cancel it's energy, or use it in some smarter way, use solid simple, or simpler sub bass. The only thing - other bass instruments like kicks are better to be sidechained so bass level falls when kick kicks or kicks volume falls when bass plays.
There are also psychoacoustic things (plugins), uses high frequencies instead of low, but you like hear the low ones.
Fully mono sub bass can be used. And of course the mix - balance from low to high. By the way Hip hop recordings show increase in bass level as measured through the years.

[johnnyfeelgood]

I'm struggling to hear the kick drum ... there seems to be a lot (too much) going on in the same frequency range.

Phasing... too much comp. it’s sitting too low in the frequency (down around and below 50, which is going to be a wash without specialized processing), and everything is fed through the same reverb. You have to separate it out and give it special attention without over producing it.

OP--I don't disagree with all the criticisms, especially this.

So a few follow-ups...

What sort of specialized processing? When I listen and look at pro Hip Hop tracks, those subs are there that low, yet don't seem to clog up the mix.

What is causing the phase issues? Panning? Too much widening on certain items?

The only added reverb is on the vox, all else is in the samples or the synth engine for a part.

I am struggling. so thanks for thoughts

I think you might need better samples?

[MogwaiBoy]

Use a low pass filter to hear what's going on down in the low end of the track you like. You can gradually raise the cut-off point ... Have it at 60Hz to begin with. Raise it to 80Hz. Raise it to 100Hz etc. This will eliminate all the higher frequencies that may be confusing your green ears.

TBProAudio's free "ISOL8" can do this with a single right click on the LF button. Can be very revealing when comparing mixes

[Hermetech Mastering]

You see as a mastering engineer I'd never find a use for something like that. I always listen to everything in context with everything else. Could see it possibly being a good didactic tool, but not a practical one.

[Aloysius]

As an ex-pope myself, I can see the benefit of it.

[mcbpete]

mono 'dat bass.

[Aloysius]

As an manic depressive, I couldn't care less half the time.

[lwj]

saturate and then saturate some more
repeat if necessary.

Bitcrushing is also fun. People fuss too much over bass.

To make bassy elements work in the mix: Gates!
Basically you want every bass element to only take up the space and time it really needs to.

With these you hardly ever need compression, because it doesn't really work on bass like that.
A compressor reduces volume and dynamics (sloppily).. so if you compress a kick to make it sound fat,
and do the same with your bass, it's just gonna clash worse.

All this assuming you're working with decent sized monitors and can hear/feel what's going on.

[Russell Grand]

Let’s also remember that hip hop producers just load up pre produced loops into a 4/4 and hit play these days. It’s all about having the samples done for you already. They aren’t doing much in the way of know how.

That might have been true 20 years ago, but now? Don't think so... i hear a lot of "custom" stuff in those productions nowadays. Apart from that, they're pretty decently produced and mixed as well, so.

+1

[Hermetech Mastering]

saturate and then saturate some more
repeat if necessary.

Bitcrushing is also fun. People fuss too much over bass.

To make bassy elements work in the mix: Gates!

Yeah, because a highly saturated, bit-crushed, gated bass always sounds amazing!