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Jace-BeOS
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4601 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:19 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

This thread is a wonderful illustration of why I avoid products with these devices/protection methods. It's an added complication I want nothing to do with.

People who have no problems, well, I'm happy for you. I had few problems with my brief usages of three dongles. I just grew tired of adding complications to my systems (at the time, Windows PCs), and I swore off them for that reason (and eventually swore off Windows and PC hardware).

The only dongled product I'm still using is Reason, and more often than not, I'm logging in online rather than using the key. Hell, I barely use Reason anyway because of the tiny GUI elements.

I'm not throwing hate; merely an unwillingness to add potential complications.
Last edited by Jace-BeOS on Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Teksonik
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12281 posts since 15 Sep, 2001, from Las Vegas,USA

Postby Teksonik; Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:29 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

I'm afraid that's not the way the game works. If you say anything at all against Dongles then you are automatically a hater or a pirate or a member of ISIS or possessed by the Devil or...... :borg:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Jace-BeOS
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4601 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:38 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

Teksonik wrote:I'm afraid that's not the way the game works. If you say anything at all against Dongles then you are automatically a hater or a pirate or a member of ISIS or possessed by the Devil or...... :borg:


Oh I am used to being told I'm unamerican or whatever...
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Jace-BeOS
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4601 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:40 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

wagtunes wrote:Speaking of Windows, the other day something really strange happened on my game computer. It started up and I got a message that it could not load the user profile. I'd never seen anything like this in all my years of using Windows. Today, it started just fine.

Like I said, it's a computer. Things happen.

And the day is never going to come where these things run 100% flawlessly 100% of the time.


The "cannot load account" issue is a known Windows problem that's not been corrected in numerous versions. Mostly because it has numerous causes and seems to strike at random. That's just the point though: too many possible causes results in a system that's hard to troubleshoot and less likely to ever be fixed by Microsoft. Windows has so much added functionality to make it deal with common problems, yet it is ultimately not very fault tolerant in its behavior. Microsoft has no motivation to make it better because claims are cheaper than core system change, which many PC users resist anyway.

The whole notion that computers are inevitably flawed, that they're acceptable the way they are... it's just social programming to protect the computer industry from accountability. It's just special pleading. Computers shouldn't be a mass of strange interactions and non-deterministic behaviors. They COULD be better, and should be better, but there's no incentive for the OS and hardware developers to work it all out, and no pressure from people or governments to ensure that it will happen any time soon.

At the very least, we should be protected by warranties, but the computer industry has, in the USA, made sure to block that. The EU does slightly better, from what I've seen, but it still seems to be mostly about getting one's money back for a software license, not about getting any accountability and compensation from developers for failures, lost time, lost productivity, false claims, etc.

So, please don't perpetuate the excuses. Computers are awful, and for no reason but for a lack of industry/regulatory interest. They suck. Yes, even the less annoying computers I've chosen over the more annoying computers I've abandoned (and the less annoying ones are getting worse for all the same reasons).
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wagtunes
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12285 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:50 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

Jace-BeOS wrote:
wagtunes wrote:Speaking of Windows, the other day something really strange happened on my game computer. It started up and I got a message that it could not load the user profile. I'd never seen anything like this in all my years of using Windows. Today, it started just fine.

Like I said, it's a computer. Things happen.

And the day is never going to come where these things run 100% flawlessly 100% of the time.


The "cannot load account" issue is a known Windows problem that's not been corrected in numerous versions. Mostly because it has numerous causes and seems to strike at random. That's just the point though: too many possible causes results in a system that's hard to troubleshoot and less likely to ever be fixed by Microsoft. Windows has so much added functionality to make it deal with common problems, yet it is ultimately not very fault tolerant in its behavior. Microsoft has no motivation to make it better because claims are cheaper than core system change, which many PC users resist anyway.

The whole notion that computers are inevitably flawed, that they're acceptable the way they are... it's just social programming to protect the computer industry from accountability. It's just special pleading. Computers shouldn't be a mass of strange interactions and non-deterministic behaviors. They COULD be better, and should be better, but there's no incentive for the OS and hardware developers to work it all out, and no pressure from people or governments to ensure that it will happen any time soon.

At the very least, we should be protected by warranties, but the computer industry has, in the USA, made sure to block that. The EU does slightly better, from what I've seen, but it still seems to be mostly about getting one's money back for a software license, not about getting any accountability and compensation from developers for failures, lost time, lost productivity, false claims, etc.

So, please don't perpetuate the excuses. Computers are awful, and for no reason but for a lack of industry/regulatory interest. They suck. Yes, even the less annoying computers I've chosen over the more annoying computers I've abandoned (and the less annoying ones are getting worse for all the same reasons).


I actually agree with you 100%. It's disgraceful that if a PC lasts more than 5 years it's a miracle. I'm just stating reality of the situation. I accept it because there isn't a hell of a lot I can do about it short of saying enough and tossing my PC out a window. But since I want the benefits that I do get from owning one, I can't do that.
kbaccki
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2436 posts since 12 Sep, 2004

Postby kbaccki; Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:57 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

Suggestion: dedicated iLok forum.

I'll even give you the tagline: "Discussion of all things iLok -- have at it!".

Please make this happen. Please please please.

RE: my iLok isn't recognized. I ran into this randomly one day like... I don't know... 10 months ago. I had an "Oh crap!" moment thinking the dongle itself pooped the bed. Quick google revealed that the PACE service didn't start. Manually start the service, problem solved. Being a software engineer I decided to dig into why the service didn't start. 10 minutes later -- the PACE service didn't start because it's dependent on other services (of course), and one of those services wasn't up and running before PACE tried to start. Seems logical. Go to Events admin console, find the PACE service failure, says (I believe it was) "TCP/IP service not available", or something like that. Another 2 minute google session: set PACE service to delayed start, as mentioned several times. No problems since.

Now... WHY did this happen randomly and all of a sudden? Microsoft is constantly spitting out updates, and some of those updates are not entirely in the best interest of it's users -- for example, their absolute obsession with the "Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program".

To wit:
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-opt- ... windows-10
"The Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP) is a feature that comes enabled by default on Windows 10, and it secretly collects and submits system information to Microsoft."


Fun!

Oh, and F U Microsoft. Seriously. F. U.

It's designed to... I don't know what the hell it's designed for... something like make sure everybody's Windows system is compatible with everything else or some nonsense. It causes problems, and google searches bear that out. On Win7 you can "opt out"... but of course MS keeps pushing out updates that magically reenable it (including a recent one in March?). On Win10 you can "opt out", but, in True Microsoft Fashion, "opting out" doesn't really mean "opt out". You have to do some "other stuff" to "opt out" on Win10.

Fun!

Now, you may ask, "why don't you just disable automatic updates?". I most certainly DO, my friend. I most certainly do. (I'm on Win7, BTW, slowly migrating to Win10 on another machine.) But every 3-6 months that I decide to manually take the latest updates I don't have the time or patience to sift through two dozen patch IDs, googling each one to determine whether it's going to play friendly with my machine. Especially if said patches are identified as "Important" or "Security Update" or whatever. I trust Microsoft has my best interest in mind. *smirky face*

So why didn't the the core service that the PACE service decide, all of a sudden, to not start up promptly?

Because Microsoft. That's why.

Which brings me to my second point. Mac OS. I use Mac OS all day for work, and Windows the rest of the day for play. I have NEVER experienced the level of frustration with Mac OS over the years as I have had with Windows. Sure, you need the occasional MBP reboot, but said reboot isn't accompanied by, say, the Wifi adapter (randomly) not being recognized, or the "OS update service" (randomly) consuming 1000% CPU, and on and on. As far as I know there is no "MacOS Customer Experience Improvement Program", and if there IS a.) it's invisible to me, and b.) it's not broken.

Which brings me to my third point. Mac OS vs. Windows forum. Better yet: the "Versus" form "for all things 'this' versus 'that'". Mac OS vs. Windows, iLok vs. no iLok, Ford vs. Chevy, BMW vs. Mercedes, etc.
You need to limit that rez, bro.
Quasar
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36 posts since 25 Sep, 2004

Postby Quasar; Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:42 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

digitalboytn wrote:
fisherKing wrote:i have had an ilok and the steinberg elicenser. in the end, there was no software i HAD to have that justified using dongles... ugh. had some rough times with both, but no longer; they've been fixed, with a machete, and am happy to be dongle-free.


:lol:

My musical world is also,very happily,iLok free :wink:

It's very simple...

If the software requires an iLok,use an alternative....

There's plenty of other possibilities out there....

We just have to be bold enough to boycott and confident enough to step outside of our self imposed boundaries and explore other options :tu:


Yep, this. The VI community could stand to be far more vigilant about demanding end-user rights and boycott draconian CP. I've never had an iLok account, nor do I intend to. Heavy-handed copy protection = NO SALE, simple like that.

If anyone wants to call me a "hater", whatever. I can own that. I hate any CP that puts profit before people, that in any way punishes or even inconveniences the honest buyer because of piracy concerns. And I won't spend a red cent on products or companies that I don't deem righteous in this regard.

I demand:
1) No hardware drivers or dongles.
2) The right to activate offline and keep my workstation entirely aloof from the pathology of the World Wide Web.

Simple serial codes, key files or offline challenge/response are all great. But this is ALL I am willing to do. Many companies still support righteous activation, though - regrettably - more and more do not. Native Instruments only recently went over to the Dark Side with their evil Native Access software, and it's only going to get worse unless people stand up for their rights.
Michael
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Michael L
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2269 posts since 25 Jan, 2014, from the End of the World as we Knowit

Postby Michael L; Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:44 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

FWIW:
Piracy has such a huge effect on software development that I must support both the BFDs (cool software features) and the PITAs (methods to reduce piracy including iLok).
I use iLok under OSX and just now learned how to use the latest iLok features to solve activation problems (with help from UVI!)
I have no Windows experience, but I still must regularly debug my own mac operating system.
Count our blessings!
Harry_HH
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2659 posts since 4 Aug, 2006, from Helsinki

Postby Harry_HH; Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:14 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

Quasar wrote:
digitalboytn wrote:
fisherKing wrote:i have had an ilok and the steinberg elicenser. in the end, there was no software i HAD to have that justified using dongles... ugh. had some rough times with both, but no longer; they've been fixed, with a machete, and am happy to be dongle-free.


:lol:

My musical world is also,very happily,iLok free :wink:

It's very simple...

If the software requires an iLok,use an alternative....

There's plenty of other possibilities out there....

We just have to be bold enough to boycott and confident enough to step outside of our self imposed boundaries and explore other options :tu:


Yep, this. The VI community could stand to be far more vigilant about demanding end-user rights and boycott draconian CP. I've never had an iLok account, nor do I intend to. Heavy-handed copy protection = NO SALE, simple like that.

If anyone wants to call me a "hater", whatever. I can own that. I hate any CP that puts profit before people, that in any way punishes or even inconveniences the honest buyer because of piracy concerns. And I won't spend a red cent on products or companies that I don't deem righteous in this regard.

I demand:
1) No hardware drivers or dongles.
2) The right to activate offline and keep my workstation entirely aloof from the pathology of the World Wide Web.

Simple serial codes, key files or offline challenge/response are all great. But this is ALL I am willing to do. Many companies still support righteous activation, though - regrettably - more and more do not. Native Instruments only recently went over to the Dark Side with their evil Native Access software, and it's only going to get worse unless people stand up for their rights.


I don´t know if the dongles etc. hardware protection systems is the core of the problem. Someone said earlier in this thread that the fact, that the lifespan of the computer (especially pc laptop) has shrinkened to 3-5 years. THAT is the problem.
All the following charge your computer.
- computer/processor manufacturers, e.g. case meltdown/spectre, computers consciously shortened
lifespan (e.g battery)
- OS: e.g. Win 10 updates scheme
- increased demand for the CPU power and RAM, because of the plugin developers
- plugin developer software managers
- computer security risks

I doubt, that no consumer in any other product area would tolerate the uncertainty included to the pricy computer investment and use.
v1o
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1047 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:27 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

To the OP. Experiencing your first issue with ilok after 5 years of use is a long time actually. If it were a real world physical tool, that you use to do your job, you would be lucky to go for that long without getting it serviced. If it was a security dog in your Studio, you would expect to take it to the vet during the course of five years. If it were a tape machine or console, you would it serviced. If it were a guitar you would get the strings changed.

Nothing in life ever works 100% all the time. Especially when it comes to computers. Even Windows crashes from time to time or you have issues where you have to go into the registry or system folders to solve things. The expectation to never ever experience issues with a software product is insane. Things do go wrong from time to time, it’s life.
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exmatproton
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2031 posts since 24 Apr, 2011

Postby exmatproton; Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:41 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

v1o wrote:To the OP. Experiencing your first issue with ilok after 5 years of use is a long time actually. If it were a real world physical tool, that you use to do your job, you would be lucky to go for that long without getting it serviced. If it was a security dog in your Studio, you would expect to take it to the vet during the course of five years. If it were a tape machine or console, you would it serviced. If it were a guitar you would get the strings changed.

Nothing in life ever works 100% all the time. Especially when it comes to computers. Even Windows crashes from time to time or you have issues where you have to go into the registry or system folders to solve things. The expectation to never ever experience issues with a software product is insane. Things do go wrong from time to time, it’s life.


:tu:
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TrojakEW
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206 posts since 20 Mar, 2012, from Slovakia

Postby TrojakEW; Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:48 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

It is about about every copyprotection that use additional sofware dependency. This add another layer of possible problems. Fact that user doen't have any problem with for now doesn't change the fact that this user will have some problem sooner or later for sure.

There are several combinatons that can cause problems. User have to deal first with OS updates that can cause problems to OS itself, stability issues. Then there is DAW wich itself can have problems and also problems depended on OS updates. Then there is plugin that is depended not just on DAW but also on OS and other runtimes that are required in order to run it. Calculate by yourself how many combination of possible problems can we have here.

Add another service to this and combinations of possible problems raise exponentially. Now when you trying to solve and find problem you have also to deal and comunicate with additional company for example ilok.

Only one who suffers from all of this is USER - Customer. Not to mention most of companies should change decription from BUY to RENT because with all that you don't really buying anything.

I hate not just ilok but all that weird junk that is used to protect something but it is not protecting me from anything. Imageline or Garritan (Aria engine) have for me almost ideal way of activating products but trully the best is Fathom synth.
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Mushy Mushy
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9449 posts since 6 Sep, 2008

Postby Mushy Mushy; Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:55 pm Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

whyterabbyt wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:
whyterabbyt wrote:
The license manager doesnt find plugins, it finds activations for plugins ie its not telling you what it sees on your system, its telling what you've got licenses for.

Hmmmm, ok that's helpful info.

How do I retell Ableton/Cubase they're active then?


If they're installed, not sure; all Ive ever needed to do is force a plugin rescan, so that, however that needs to be done.

(and if they're not installed, then, erm, obvious ;)

edit : A thought; if your host has a 'blacklist' for failed plugins, you may need to work out how to delete that.
Thanks, WR.

Curiously though the error message does tell me to correct the issue in license manager.

Regarding the blacklist, they're currently not sitting in that list in either DAW. Instead they appear in my plugin list exactly as normal and only throw an error when dropped into a track.

Anyway I'll have a play over the weekend and contact support if needed. I might also start a new thread to discuss as I'd like to avoid this one in future :wink:
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noiseboyuk
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2295 posts since 25 Jan, 2007

Postby noiseboyuk; Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:15 am Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

TrojakEW wrote:It is about about every copyprotection that use additional sofware dependency. This add another layer of possible problems. Fact that user doen't have any problem with for now doesn't change the fact that this user will have some problem sooner or later for sure.


Correct, and that's the world we live in - blame the pirates. A few days ago I noted my Kontakt license for DM-307 was demo, and I couldn't reactive with my code. Heavyocity were very good about it, and reset something or other, but essentially I was without it for 24 hours. C'est la vie.

AFAIK the only genuinely serious problem with iLok was a few years ago when they transitioned to iLok License Manager and for several weeks it crippled permanent licenses. This was actually very serious, I heard stories of post houses nearly going under. If ever there was a time to complain about iLok, it was then. Since I've not heard anything that wasn't resolvable with some fairly quick support in any form of copy protection.
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fmr
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7274 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:25 am Re: Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

kbaccki wrote: Which brings me to my second point. Mac OS. I use Mac OS all day for work, and Windows the rest of the day for play. I have NEVER experienced the level of frustration with Mac OS over the years as I have had with Windows. Sure, you need the occasional MBP reboot, but said reboot isn't accompanied by, say, the Wifi adapter (randomly) not being recognized, or the "OS update service" (randomly) consuming 1000% CPU, and on and on. As far as I know there is no "MacOS Customer Experience Improvement Program", and if there IS a.) it's invisible to me, and b.) it's not broken.

This only says one thing to me: You don't push macOS to the boundaries as you push Windows. You are probably a designer (I'm just guessing) and a musician at home.

At home, you use the Windows machine for real-time work, you use iLOK, etc.

At work, you use a Mac with Adobe suite or something like that. And you state that you never had problems with macOS.

Point is: Without comparing what you do with your Mac at work, and what you do with your Windows at home, this isn't a valid comparison. Being someone who uses both platforms for music, I can say that I experience problems in BOTH. Truth is: I never experienced problems with iLOK on the Mac, but I did several times in Windows - why should I blame Windows for this?

Especially when I know that Pace wasn't working OK with Windows 10 when this was about to be released, and when I wrote them about that, they blatantly answered me that they weren't supporting Windows 10 YET (???). This was like one month prior to the official launching. No wonder there were problems.
Fernando (FMR)
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