Hi everybody, I'm looking for compositional advice on having a stronger tonal center in my songs. I've been composing for some time now, but I don't have any formal training which makes it difficult. This post is somewhat broad, but any tips or techniques would be much appreciated.
I'll give an example here. I'm writing a piece of music in which the verse has a synthesized pad playing block chords under a melody. I'm attempting to write in A minor but after fiddling with the composition for a while, I ended up having C for 2 bars, Amin for 1 bar, and Emin for 1 bar. This progression is repeating. With this progression it really feels like the song is in C major rather than A minor. Part of this comes from sticking to the C major chord for so long.
I would just write the piece in C major but I like ending on the 5th of A minor to have a half cadence. My general thinking is that given the somewhat ambiguous tonality of the chord progression I need to better utilize the melody to infer the key. Does that seem reasonable? Or should I just change up the progression?
Like I said, it's a broad post. I'm just looking for general information on the topic to supplement the research I've already done.
Thanks in advance!!
Help with Tonality
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 26 posts since 7 Apr, 2017
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- KVRist
- 223 posts since 19 Apr, 2011
So your current progression is just C (x2), Am, Em?
Honestly, I hear that as being in the key of E minor. I guess it's possible whatever you've got going over that might change things, but that really feels like your tonal center to me, no matter how long that C chord goes on. It won't always be the case that your key is the first or last chord, but it more often than not is. The ear is probably not going to hear the middle chord as being the tonal center. And in this case, the Em doesn't really make you feel like you're moving back to the C in the way that a cadence should, i.e. if you had C, Am, G, C, then it would absolutely be in C because that G is clearly the V chord which would be a half cadence begging for you to go back to the I (C).
Keep in mind that if you've got a melody over this that uses F (which is not in the key of E minor), you are playing E phrygian over E minor which is perfectly fine (and likely more interesting). If you want to stick with the F# that would unequivocally define this as E minor, if you play that over the C major you will get an interesting b5 over the Cd.
In other words, if you want to write in A minor, the most obvious way is by either ending on Am or starting on Am and ending on Em before looping back to Am. There are of course other possibilities but those will make it much clearer. Ultimately, in writing a song you don't need to specifically set out to write in a certain key although I can appreciate why doing so as a musical exercise can be worthwhile.
Honestly, I hear that as being in the key of E minor. I guess it's possible whatever you've got going over that might change things, but that really feels like your tonal center to me, no matter how long that C chord goes on. It won't always be the case that your key is the first or last chord, but it more often than not is. The ear is probably not going to hear the middle chord as being the tonal center. And in this case, the Em doesn't really make you feel like you're moving back to the C in the way that a cadence should, i.e. if you had C, Am, G, C, then it would absolutely be in C because that G is clearly the V chord which would be a half cadence begging for you to go back to the I (C).
Keep in mind that if you've got a melody over this that uses F (which is not in the key of E minor), you are playing E phrygian over E minor which is perfectly fine (and likely more interesting). If you want to stick with the F# that would unequivocally define this as E minor, if you play that over the C major you will get an interesting b5 over the Cd.
In other words, if you want to write in A minor, the most obvious way is by either ending on Am or starting on Am and ending on Em before looping back to Am. There are of course other possibilities but those will make it much clearer. Ultimately, in writing a song you don't need to specifically set out to write in a certain key although I can appreciate why doing so as a musical exercise can be worthwhile.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Things that lead us to take a note or harmony as home include the pull of tensions in harmonies or chords; the melody (for instance is there an orbit with a clear center note); and the rhythm (and such as the harmonic rhythm, ie., how often the chord or harmony changes and how this change is emphasized rhythmically).
"I need to better utilize the melody to infer the key." Yes (although you want 'imply' or 'indicate' rather than infer).
As to why this seems ambiguous to you, we can't really know just from listing the chords because we need to hear it. What does the tune do? We have 2 bars of C and but 1 bar of the other two. That's your basic harmonic rhythm, you detect more gravity at C just from that as you noted.
A minor chord and a half-cadence... well, the terms 'tonality' and 'half-cadence' tend to point to a dominant harmony or dominant chord. E minor to A minor does not in itself contain very much tension. Once you introduce the real dominant, E major, into this the G# will tend to be attracted to that A. Natural minor tends to be less dynamic or strong harmonically than minor which contains a dominant, known as melodic or harmonic minor.
"I need to better utilize the melody to infer the key." Yes (although you want 'imply' or 'indicate' rather than infer).
As to why this seems ambiguous to you, we can't really know just from listing the chords because we need to hear it. What does the tune do? We have 2 bars of C and but 1 bar of the other two. That's your basic harmonic rhythm, you detect more gravity at C just from that as you noted.
A minor chord and a half-cadence... well, the terms 'tonality' and 'half-cadence' tend to point to a dominant harmony or dominant chord. E minor to A minor does not in itself contain very much tension. Once you introduce the real dominant, E major, into this the G# will tend to be attracted to that A. Natural minor tends to be less dynamic or strong harmonically than minor which contains a dominant, known as melodic or harmonic minor.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed May 09, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
If you are using C, C, Am, Em, i'd say this progression is more modal than tonal. jancivil is right in pointing that the dominant of A minor is E Major, not E minor. With E minor you will not establish the tonality (because of the lack of the dominant function).
That's why goldenhelix pointed that it sounds to him as E minor. In fact, if you are playing with F and not F#, I'd say you are in the mode of E (what people use to call Phrygian). That is not wrong, in fact it can sound more "floating" but you will not have that "rest" that is given by a V-i cadence, nor the tension that is given by a i-V cadence. You will achieve that only if you use the E Major chord.
That's why goldenhelix pointed that it sounds to him as E minor. In fact, if you are playing with F and not F#, I'd say you are in the mode of E (what people use to call Phrygian). That is not wrong, in fact it can sound more "floating" but you will not have that "rest" that is given by a V-i cadence, nor the tension that is given by a i-V cadence. You will achieve that only if you use the E Major chord.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRist
- 223 posts since 19 Apr, 2011
Yes, I should have mentioned that this is not really a cadence. I'm guessing from the OP's question that he/she learned about cadences lately and is kinda looking for them as a result, but not every chord progression has a real cadence and this is one of them. If the progression were Am, C, Em, then maybe we would hear the E (even as a minor, although as you guys have pointed out, classical theory would probably prefer a major or 7th chord there) as the dominant in a half cadence as you loop back to Am again. But if I sit at a piano and play 2 measures of C, then a measure each of Am and Em, it really sounds to me like Em is "home base" and there is no real cadence, it is just a vi-iv-i progression in the key of Em (since none of these chords contain either F or F# they don't in themselves hint at any particular mode - it could be natural minor or Phrygian depending on which of those two notes you play in the melody). That's how I see it anyways.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 26 posts since 7 Apr, 2017
Thanks for the replies everyone. I am somewhat new to composing so all of this info really helps. This seems like a really cool community here at KVR, I'll probably be back with more questions soon lol. Take care everyone, and thanks again!
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- KVRist
- 168 posts since 18 Oct, 2017
C C Am Em / C C Am Em / Dm C G G / Dm C G G
Not a problem
PS maybe you want to repeat 3 bars, then it gets interesting to go modal.
C C Am Em | C C Am Em | C C Am Em | F Bb C C
The Beatles did that all the time, didn't they?
Not a problem
PS maybe you want to repeat 3 bars, then it gets interesting to go modal.
C C Am Em | C C Am Em | C C Am Em | F Bb C C
The Beatles did that all the time, didn't they?
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- KVRian
- 893 posts since 12 Jun, 2006
Some simple advice to help you develop further at this early stage (you mention no formal training):YoungCrocket wrote:Hi everybody, I'm looking for compositional advice on having a stronger tonal center in my songs. I've been composing for some time now, but I don't have any formal training which makes it difficult.
(Sorry that sounded slightly patronizing...wasn't meant that way)!
1) Don't worry about it, just keep sketching out lots of ideas and then develop the ones that seem to be working without concerning yourself too much with the music theory. (Theory knowledge is very useful, but it shouldn't ever get in the way of experimenting and enjoying it all)!
2) Start with chord sequences from pieces that you really enjoy - learn them and then experiment and make them your own by tweaking them.You will learn a lot at this stage by studying and then adapting other people's ideas.
3) Try different starting points for your composing; even at this stage, do NOT get stuck in a rut of always doing it one way! Start with trying to create a strong melodic line, maybe, and then see what harmonic backdrop it suggests?
Me, I rarely think about 'chords' as such...I write melodies...lead ones, supporting ones, bass ones etc etc and then the implied harmonies come from there. If I ever do get hooked into a chord sequence that really grabs me, then from the very first time I play around with it I am always experimenting with related melodic ideas at the same time.
4) Certain chord sequences do NOT have a STRONG tonal centre and that's absolutely fine...they can still form the basis of effective composition. sometimes they clearly hint at one particular key without slamming it in your face; other times they can be ambiguous and tease you with more than one potential home key...it doesn't necessarily matter at all! :0)
Example: Em-G7-C-B
Definitely in E minor overall, but not as strong as it could be as it clearly more than hints at C as well.
Also, it's quite 'mixed mode' in E minor which weakens it's tonal centre to some extent:
G7 (for example) potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode: E F G A B C D E (F rather than F#)
Of course, the melodic material linked to the above chords could further strengthen or weaken the feel of E minor!
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
All you have stated for this to be true is a harmony which ironically is exactly the one most likely to ruin Phrygian (as, obviously the tension in it rather begs for resolution to C major; for a newb particularly I would stay away from providing new info contextless as that).ChamMusic wrote: G7 (for example) potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode: E F G A B C D E (F rather than F#)
As given it is V7 of vi. Nothing at all 'E Phrygian' about V7 of vi in E minor. It's a coincidence thru the note F, it's not more.
pet peeve of mine here, carry on.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I admit to never have quite grokked 'mode of E' and 'Modal Counterpoint' even as it was the whole thrust of 2/3rds of a year at CCM in History and my little bit of follow-up independently. I think I have you on 'what people used to call Phrygian', in that this may be blurred in modern-day by use of modality which owes practically nothing to Church Music Polyphonic practices, where people talk of phrygian that couldn't care less about that bit of history.fmr wrote:If you are using C, C, Am, Em, i'd say this progression is more modal than tonal. jancivil is right in pointing that the dominant of A minor is E Major, not E minor. With E minor you will not establish the tonality (because of the lack of the dominant function).
That's why goldenhelix pointed that it sounds to him as E minor. In fact, if you are playing with F and not F#, I'd say you are in the mode of E (what people use to call Phrygian). That is not wrong, in fact it can sound more "floating" but you will not have that "rest" that is given by a V-i cadence, nor the tension that is given by a i-V cadence. You will achieve that only if you use the E Major chord.
As to here, I wouldn't call this E phrygian until I was certain that (the note) E was the 'tonic'. IE: it could be 'floating' and contain the same notes as E phrygian and not be that. If OTOH the OP's compo is sitting on 'E minor' a lot and it comes across as the home chord, and there is a prevalence of F natural (and teh other white keys) chances are high it may be just the ticket to see if modal practices (in other than, you know, 15th c. Roman Church Polyphony) coincide with one's proclivities and taste.
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- KVRAF
- 11093 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
That "bit of history" spans almost 500 years.jancivil wrote: I admit to never have quite grokked 'mode of E' and 'Modal Counterpoint' even as it was the whole thrust of 2/3rds of a year at CCM in History and my little bit of follow-up independently. I think I have you on 'what people used to call Phrygian', in that this may be blurred in modern-day by use of modality which owes practically nothing to Church Music Polyphonic practices, where people talk of phrygian that couldn't care less about that bit of history.
As to here, I wouldn't call this E phrygian until I was certain that (the note) E was the 'tonic'. IE: it could be 'floating' and contain the same notes as E phrygian and not be that. If OTOH the OP's compo is sitting on 'E minor' a lot and it comes across as the home chord, and there is a prevalence of F natural (and teh other white keys) chances are high it may be just the ticket to see if modal practices (in other than, you know, 15th c. Roman Church Polyphony) coincide with one's proclivities and taste.
But I have to confess I didn't follow your point. The mode of E is the mode of E, no matter how you use it or call it. You may call it "Phrygian" (which is a wrong name - we had this discussion before) but we are still talking about the same thing. The way you use it has nothing to do with what it is, the same way the way you use E minor has nothing to do with what E minor is. Many modern composers used modes in their own way, yet the modes remained what they are.
And what exactly do you mean with "chances are high it may be just the ticket to see if modal practices (in other than, you know, 15th c. Roman Church Polyphony) coincide with one's proclivities and taste."?
I don't want the OP to do modal polyphony in Dufay style, if that's what you imply (forgive me if I understood you wrongly).
Actually, he/she even said that wants to work in E minor, not modal. What will happening, if F natural keeps being used, is a certain tonal/modal ambiguity, but the end song may still be tonal. Which is OK with me - it may contribute to a certain fluidity in the music, and as long as some strong cadences appear in the right places, tonality will stay there.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRian
- 893 posts since 12 Jun, 2006
It wasn't context less at all, although, on review, I fully accept that it was definitely too much info! :0)jancivil wrote:All you have stated for this to be true is a harmony which ironically is exactly the one most likely to ruin Phrygian (as, obviously the tension in it rather begs for resolution to C major; for a newb particularly I would stay away from providing new info contextless as that).ChamMusic wrote: G7 (for example) potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode: E F G A B C D E (F rather than F#)
As given it is V7 of vi. Nothing at all 'E Phrygian' about V7 of vi in E minor. It's a coincidence thru the note F, it's not more.
pet peeve of mine here, carry on.
I used the very careful phrase potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode as I realized that it was not a strong statement of the mode. However, other parts in the piece could easily strengthen this feel and move it beyond your 'coincidence' quite easily. V7 role...yes, I accept your point there, it doesn't exactly strengthen the Phrygian argument, but I knew that anyway! Having played through the sequence in various ways at the piano (particularly with variations in leading melodic content) I stand by the mild hint at Phrygian.
Reading a lot of your entries in various topics out of curiosity...you do have an awful lot of 'pet peeves' you know! :0)
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I am no expert on (nor any big fan of ANY OF) the Holy Motherfucking Roman Church Polyphony and already implied it self-deprecatingly.fmr wrote:That "bit of history" spans almost 500 years.jancivil wrote: I admit to never have quite grokked 'mode of E' and 'Modal Counterpoint' even as it was the whole thrust of 2/3rds of a year at CCM in History and my little bit of follow-up independently. I think I have you on 'what people used to call Phrygian', in that this may be blurred in modern-day by use of modality which owes practically nothing to Church Music Polyphonic practices, where people talk of phrygian that couldn't care less about that bit of history.
As to here, I wouldn't call this E phrygian until I was certain that (the note) E was the 'tonic'. IE: it could be 'floating' and contain the same notes as E phrygian and not be that. If OTOH the OP's compo is sitting on 'E minor' a lot and it comes across as the home chord, and there is a prevalence of F natural (and teh other white keys) chances are high it may be just the ticket to see if modal practices (in other than, you know, 15th c. Roman Church Polyphony) coincide with one's proclivities and taste.
oh, forget the rest of it, this exchange is useless any way you cut it.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
