How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

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dellboy wrote:
jancivil wrote: which of these is real and which virtual,

https://youtu.be/DFBD66iK3HE?t=1s

https://youtu.be/AQ2IfNYGMMM?t=0s
To my ears they both sound virtual.

So if one is real and one is virtual I guess they pulled it off as it has fooled me listening just once. Maybe if I listened multiple times I might spot the difference.
Actually for a moment, and going over it twice (not quite objective since I spent a little bit of time with it yesterday) I took the real as the virtual. In fact both have more or less the same quality of key noise at the spots, which was where I was wrong. I was also looking for vibrato as a cue (although probably the samples library would appear to have more than one to switch to/from) and the difference today is too subtle for me.

I've spent enough time on this to come down with a preference, I like the phrasing in the real performance better.
When I started I was worried that the noise from the vinyl would be a dead giveaway. It isn't now, in all likelihood.

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jancivil wrote:
mediumaevum wrote:Maybe one should simply accept that virtual instruments cannot sound real. They can however, sound in similarity with a real instrument. In my opinion, both composer AND listener should accept that it is not the real thing and listen to the piece afterall and live with the limitations, but of course the responsibility of creating a pleasing sound nonetheless is solely that of the composer using virtual instruments.
Ok.

Can you please tell me which of these is real and which virtual, giving reasons for the decision (Benjamin Britten's Pan for solo oboe, excerpted):

https://youtu.be/DFBD66iK3HE?t=1s

https://youtu.be/AQ2IfNYGMMM?t=0s
Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this. I think I have it. Took many listens to zoom in on the biggest difference.

Listen to the initial attack of each. The first one seems a little uneven. The second one seems dead perfect, as if played by a sample. It's subtle, but if you listen closely, you can hear it. Like the amount of breath going into the first one is varying slightly on the attack whereas the second one, given there is no breath variance, sounds perfect or, in this case, a little on the cold side.

So I say the first one is real and the second one is the sample.

If I'm wrong, then at least as far as oboe's go, you can't tell the difference. Well, correction, you can't tell which is real. I can hear the difference. I'm guessing that variance on the breath is what makes the first one the real one, if that is in fact what I'm hearing and not some other artifact.

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jancivil wrote:
dellboy wrote:
jancivil wrote: which of these is real and which virtual,

https://youtu.be/DFBD66iK3HE?t=1s

https://youtu.be/AQ2IfNYGMMM?t=0s
To my ears they both sound virtual.

So if one is real and one is virtual I guess they pulled it off as it has fooled me listening just once. Maybe if I listened multiple times I might spot the difference.
Actually for a moment, and going over it twice (not quite objective since I spent a little bit of time with it yesterday) I took the real as the virtual. In fact both have more or less the same quality of key noise at the spots, which was where I was wrong. I was also looking for vibrato as a cue (although probably the samples library would appear to have more than one to switch to/from) and the difference today is too subtle for me.

I've spent enough time on this to come down with a preference, I like the phrasing in the real performance better.
When I started I was worried that the noise from the vinyl would be a dead giveaway. It isn't now, in all likelihood.
Its beat me.

I have listened a number of times,and if there is a difference I am unable to hear it.

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wagtunes wrote: So I say the first one is real and the second one is the sample.
BZZZT - wrong :)

Thanks for playing. Pan 01 is Jay Bacal's demo for VSL winds at their website.
Pan 00 is Nancy Ambrose King, Professor of Oboe at the School of Music, Theatre and Dance at University of Michigan.

I verified it again by putting both 'Pan 00' and a fresh download of Ms King's rendition (on youtube) in Cubase, playing them back at the same time. I was pretty sure I had that bit right but my short term memory does not seem to be so good at the moment (I had deleted it all as I'm right at maximum capacity on my SSD).

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wagtunes wrote:variance on the breath
VSL, baby
:D

And Jay Bacal's a motherf**ker. It must be all he does. He did the whole Rite of Spring and it's a terrific rendition.
Also he did Varèse Ionisation which until recently when more came to light was my favorite version (in the 'exotic' portion of their Percussion Full they provide everything you need for this).

EDIT: this is why you do blind tests. I'm just as guilty of that kind of preconception, for instance the Sarasate in the demo for Solo Strings, I think there is one spot that seems like a real violinist would not be quite that crisp, but chances seem 50/50 I would be mistaken in a blind test.

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jancivil wrote:
wagtunes wrote:variance on the breath
VSL, baby
:D

And Jay Bacal's a motherf**ker. It must be all he does. He did the whole Rite of Spring and it's a terrific rendition.
Also he did Varèse Ionisation which until recently when more came to light was my favorite version (in the 'exotic' portion of their Percussion Full they provide everything you need for this).

EDIT: this is why you do blind tests. I'm just as guilty of that kind of preconception, for instance the Sarasate in the demo for Solo Strings, I think there is one spot that seems like a real violinist would not be quite that crisp, but chances seem 50/50 I would be mistaken in a blind test.
Well, I definitely liked the first one better. The second sounded too perfect with each attack. Almost mechanical. Sonically, you really can't hear a difference as far as the body of the sound but that attack is a dead giveaway as far as telling they are two different instruments.

Hysterical that I like the fake better.

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jancivil wrote:Actually, the sound of them is virtually indistinguishable to me. I'd forgotten which was which already and A/Bing just now did not help me immediately. Then I noticed a significant difference in phrasing early on, which I did actually remember so I'm sure.

Try again. :D
One of them is "first-prize winner of [a famous competition for] Solo Oboists" on some album.
The other is [strike that, I shan't say because it's a giveaway].


I had a very high degree of confidence on the blind test concept. Now I have to say the argument that you can't get it to come across same as real has been refuted, yeah?

Jan:

I have a serious, serious amount of respect for your musicality and knowledge of the subject...

I'm pretty much obsessed by many aspects of music in all its forms and I have absolutely no doubt that conversations I've had with you on KVR have opened my eyes and broadened / deepened my own experience.

BUT...

On this one subject you are simply wrong. I have no doubt that you are being honest, but someone somewhere has fooled you with these two excerpts!

I'll be totally upfront now that you've given your answer:

I KNOW that they are both from VSL as I own their SOLO FRENCH OBOE - They sound virtually indistinguishable, because they ARE the same track...an excerpt from a demo for SOLO FRENCH OBOE by Vienna Symphonic Library - programmed and mixed by Jay Bacal!

Pan 00 cuts in quicker at the beginning and continues further into the demo, but apart from that they are 100% IDENTICAL!!! Listen to them phrase by phrase and you'll hear it!

Here's a screen shot of them side by side in Audacity set to 0.0dB (Pan 00 at the bottom with the last phrase cut):
Oboe.png
I also did a frequency / spectral analysis of them as well to double-check what my ear / Audacity was telling me and that came out 100% identical as well!

You'll find the TRACK on this page:

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Music

Just scan down to BRITTEN Benjamin...just one track there.

Or you can also find it here on the FRENCH OBOE page:

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Woodwinds_I/French_Oboe#!Demos

I don't know who told you that one was real or where you got them from, but you have a fake on your hands here! 100% definite!
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Last edited by ChamMusic on Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Also:
Out of curiosity I sent the tracks to an old colleague who was a professional oboe player at a very high level some years ago. Without any prompts, I asked for her comments. Key parts of her reply here:

"Mark, why have you sent me the same track twice? Was that deliberate? the 2nd one's longer but surely it's just the same as the shorter first one?
If you think you're going to fool me into saying I'm listening to an oboe...f**k off! It all sounds very nice; lovely, infect (sic) but i'm not listening to the real McCoy."

I asked her how she knew:

"...no depth to the sound, it's a bit too flat for a real oboe. There's also, not that little edge to the sound, too smooth...f**k, I wish I could play in tune that well, it's too perfect...where is the key and pad noise? You recorded oboes over the years and you know that it's impossible to keep that down so quiet in a solo like this. No breath noises either and you know how all that stale air can make the breathing quite noisy simetimes (sic) in the very best players."

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And finally. Here is Nancy Ambrose King's version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLxWE_7XiWk

Clearly different.

Richer and more dynamic.

More lively.

Edgier, brighter.

It's subtle, but you can hear key and pad noise throughout.

Later on in the piece you can also hear quiet breathing noises + lip noise on the reed!

Here's Nancy's next to the other two (again set to 0dB):
Oboe 2.png
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ChamMusic wrote:
On this one subject you are simply wrong. I have no doubt that you are being honest, but someone somewhere has fooled you with these two excerpts!

I'll be totally upfront now that you've given your answer:

I KNOW that they are both from VSL as I own their SOLO FRENCH OBOE - They sound virtually indistinguishable, because they ARE the same track...an excerpt from a demo for SOLO FRENCH OBOE by Vienna Symphonic Library - programmed and mixed by Jay Bacal!
It's my mistake. I had double checked it or so I had thought but seem to have fooled myself with file names confusion. I had to go into FCPX to make videos (or buy some conversion app) so... :oops:
I checked again. The real recording* is apparently NOT the video Pan 00.

My original files were the VSL demo off their page and the *very same youtube you presented. So it's all on me.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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That explains it! :0)

Thank you for saying so...easily done! :0)

Huge kudos as well...I've known a lot of people who would have simply tried to cover it up! :0)

Apologies if my reply and evidence went on a bit, but I was annoyed at all the nonsense people were spouting about what they could and couldn't hear in the 2 versions!

I was starting to think I was going insane! :0)

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The thing is, the timing doesn't significantly deviate until around 0:21. I managed to get the correct files up in Nuendo now and while they won't pass the summing test as the same file clearly, they unison rather nicely. Then it sounds like a nice canon. :D Beautiful actually.

And that's my first real notice in my recollection before I f**ked up, and I said I liked the phrasing better.

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Yes, she speeds up that 3rd phrase quite dramatically...comes in a bit too early for me as well...I wanted more pause.

She better NOT read this!:0) It was her You Tube channel you were using! :0)

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I liked her phrasing in the 1st period, I like waiting for it in the 3rd.

I'll have deleted her video off my drive eventually anyway (ARRRR! and avast) but this was insta-delete one too many times, and I confuse myself with my own videos if there's too much redundancy as it is! I should be in a convalescent hospital.

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jancivil wrote:I liked her phrasing in the 1st period, I like waiting for it in the 3rd.

I'll have deleted her video off my drive eventually anyway (ARRRR! and avast) but this was insta-delete one too many times, and I confuse myself with my own videos if there's too much redundancy as it is! I should be in a convalescent hospital.
Kudos for being so honest about it.

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