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ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
11097 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:12 am Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

HunterKiller wrote:
PakotecSamples wrote:The whole world is moving to the cloud and subscription plans.

The whole world is easily deceived as to the definition of what is actually better or what is not better - at all. Just because the WHOLE WORLD is heading in one direction does not mean that it is the right direction, that it is a good direction, or a sustainable direction. The "whole world" has been wrong many times.

Cloud and subscription are actually part of the problem.


Yep! At any rate, this will fail or morph, it can't succeed as is precisely because of a previous poster's comment. Ten hours exceeds many hobby user's monthly usage of many plugins, but, hobby users are the bread and butter of many vendor's business models. Weekly rentals aren't going to work either. I bet that for 90%, or more, of the plugins that I own, I haven't touched them in the last six months.

What is going to happen is that many/most people will simply get over their plugin fetish when it ceases to become consumption.

Best of luck, sounds like I should install it so thatI can stop paying for most of my plugins.
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antic604
KVRian
 
1116 posts since 4 Jan, 2017, from Warsaw, Poland

Postby antic604; Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:49 am Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

ghettosynth wrote:Yep! At any rate, this will fail or morph, it can't succeed as is precisely because of a previous poster's comment. Ten hours exceeds many hobby user's monthly usage of many plugins, but, hobby users are the bread and butter of many vendor's business models. Weekly rentals aren't going to work either. I bet that for 90%, or more, of the plugins that I own, I haven't touched them in the last six months.

What is going to happen is that many/most people will simply get over their plugin fetish when it ceases to become consumption.

Best of luck, sounds like I should install it so thatI can stop paying for most of my plugins.


Well, then maybe read/watch again, because the platform allows you to straight up purchase plugins, like you do currently, but manage them - install, update - from single place, rather than by visiting dozens of web pages with their unique logins & passwords. If you ever used Reason's rack extension environment you'd know how convenient it is - single click on a new computer or in different studio and you have all your tools installed, updated and ready to go.

Sure, it's gonna be a huge challenge to get on board the bigger VST developers, who already built managers of their own - like Waves, NI or Melda - but if no one tries, then definitely no one will succeed :)
Live 10 // Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4
Music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604
Hez
KVRist
 
475 posts since 10 Dec, 2013
To echo some others, respect for having a go at this and I'll keep an eye on it!

Anybody that suggests that there is no problem to be solved obviously doesn't have the plugin addiction that I have >_<
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
11097 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:55 am Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

antic604 wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:Yep! At any rate, this will fail or morph, it can't succeed as is precisely because of a previous poster's comment. Ten hours exceeds many hobby user's monthly usage of many plugins, but, hobby users are the bread and butter of many vendor's business models. Weekly rentals aren't going to work either. I bet that for 90%, or more, of the plugins that I own, I haven't touched them in the last six months.

What is going to happen is that many/most people will simply get over their plugin fetish when it ceases to become consumption.

Best of luck, sounds like I should install it so thatI can stop paying for most of my plugins.


Well, then maybe read/watch again, because the platform allows you to straight up purchase plugins, like you do currently, but manage them - install, update - from single place, rather than by visiting dozens of web pages with their unique logins & passwords.


You completely missed the point of my post. I didn't say that people "couldn't" buy, I'm saying that if they don't have to buy, they "won't" buy. Rental/subscription will initially seem like the second coming, but I predict that the change in purchasing habits will change usage and value perception and it will eventually backfire.

I really do think that this is the key element of the rental model that vendors are missing and we're starting to see this in discussion on various forums now that subscriptions have been out for a few years. It takes a while for the realization to set in once you've initially convinced yourself of the "value" and psyched yourself up for this fantastic deal that you're getting.

This won't survive in its current form as I say. It will have to evolve because a recurring demo of that length will cover a huge number of normal use cases from casual buyers. I also think that being able to rent plugins for a week is going to pretty much kill the purchase market for some plugins, perhaps even entire catalogs.

The real killer though is that when people can just demo/rent all of those different plugins so conveniently, they will begin to realize much sooner how much of a waste of money all of that variety often can be. Go see the thread on "synth purchase regrets" to get a sense of this. People often don't realize until after the purchase that A, B, and C are all just almost indistinguishable shades of each other. If you're selling A, B, and C, that's ok, because you get their money in that moment of excitement, if you're renting though, the entire dynamic of the sale process changes and you're now a utility.

I'm not asking here, this is my prediction, the convenience of the digital rental market will kill much of the ability to sell dubious sizzle to ignorant customers. That convenience is going to be a part of it. No need to create three separate accounts and come on KVR and bitch about B not having a demo. Just click, click, and click, then, oh shit, these pretty much sound the same. No more purchase regret, instead of three companies selling three synths for $100 each, one company might sell a synth, or even worse, just get a week or two rental every six months or so.

Go on, ask people on this forum how often they've taken breaks from music for six months or more? Ask them if they've purchased plugins that have never been used in a track? Ask them if they own more plugins than they've released tracks?

Short term non-recurring rentals are going to be fantastic for the customer and shit for the vendor. Look at how other markets manage this now in the digital domain. The standard is to automatically renew because vendors know that the chance of you renewing after you let something lapse is low to non-existent. I was just thinking about this exact thing this past week with some internet services that I need to kill because I'm not using them anymore but I've been paying for them annually for a couple of years. They're not that expensive so they slip below the radar.
PakotecSamples
KVRer
 
7 posts since 22 May, 2013, from Israel

Postby PakotecSamples; Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:42 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

ghettosynth wrote:
antic604 wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:Yep! At any rate, this will fail or morph, it can't succeed as is precisely because of a previous poster's comment. Ten hours exceeds many hobby user's monthly usage of many plugins, but, hobby users are the bread and butter of many vendor's business models. Weekly rentals aren't going to work either. I bet that for 90%, or more, of the plugins that I own, I haven't touched them in the last six months.

What is going to happen is that many/most people will simply get over their plugin fetish when it ceases to become consumption.

Best of luck, sounds like I should install it so thatI can stop paying for most of my plugins.


Well, then maybe read/watch again, because the platform allows you to straight up purchase plugins, like you do currently, but manage them - install, update - from single place, rather than by visiting dozens of web pages with their unique logins & passwords.


You completely missed the point of my post. I didn't say that people "couldn't" buy, I'm saying that if they don't have to buy, they "won't" buy. Rental/subscription will initially seem like the second coming, but I predict that the change in purchasing habits will change usage and value perception and it will eventually backfire.

I really do think that this is the key element of the rental model that vendors are missing and we're starting to see this in discussion on various forums now that subscriptions have been out for a few years. It takes a while for the realization to set in once you've initially convinced yourself of the "value" and psyched yourself up for this fantastic deal that you're getting.

This won't survive in its current form as I say. It will have to evolve because a recurring demo of that length will cover a huge number of normal use cases from casual buyers. I also think that being able to rent plugins for a week is going to pretty much kill the purchase market for some plugins, perhaps even entire catalogs.

The real killer though is that when people can just demo/rent all of those different plugins so conveniently, they will begin to realize much sooner how much of a waste of money all of that variety often can be. Go see the thread on "synth purchase regrets" to get a sense of this. People often don't realize until after the purchase that A, B, and C are all just almost indistinguishable shades of each other. If you're selling A, B, and C, that's ok, because you get their money in that moment of excitement, if you're renting though, the entire dynamic of the sale process changes and you're now a utility.

I'm not asking here, this is my prediction, the convenience of the digital rental market will kill much of the ability to sell dubious sizzle to ignorant customers. That convenience is going to be a part of it. No need to create three separate accounts and come on KVR and bitch about B not having a demo. Just click, click, and click, then, oh shit, these pretty much sound the same. No more purchase regret, instead of three companies selling three synths for $100 each, one company might sell a synth, or even worse, just get a week or two rental every six months or so.

Go on, ask people on this forum how often they've taken breaks from music for six months or more? Ask them if they've purchased plugins that have never been used in a track? Ask them if they own more plugins than they've released tracks?

Short term non-recurring rentals are going to be fantastic for the customer and shit for the vendor. Look at how other markets manage this now in the digital domain. The standard is to automatically renew because vendors know that the chance of you renewing after you let something lapse is low to non-existent. I was just thinking about this exact thing this past week with some internet services that I need to kill because I'm not using them anymore but I've been paying for them annually for a couple of years. They're not that expensive so they slip below the radar.


I need to clarify few things. Most of what you all saying is true...the good and the bad things.
But the main problem is that I feel that you see only black and white without the middle.

1) We clearly mention UP TO 10hrs. means that we will have some plugins that will be much less. The reason is because a vendor that have a plugin that cleans noise, will lose a lot of money and its true. Why? Because I can clean an audio and that all, I dont need to rent the plugin any more, and 10 hours is more than enough. This is why each plugin is analysed in a way to fit the user and the vendor so both win.

2) Whatever musician, a newbie or a senior thinks about the industry can think how much he want. But numbers are facts. Real research is a fact. For years we were interviewing musicians on how much they are working a day, how many plugins they use, how much they buy, how much they pirate, how much they spend. We did it with 1000 musicians, from different countries and different social economic life.

42.7% musicians are working on music between 1 to up to 4 hours a day minimum.
45.1% of musicians use 10 and more plugins in one single project.
60.1% pirated plugins... what?? a shock??

So our vendors already losing huge amount of cash either way...with PluginPlay they have the option to at least have the users details, to market about new products, and try to make you guys paying customers. And if not $100 per plugin, because not everybody can afford it...at least $10 per month... without it...this 60% they dont even know who they are.

More than that we have 3 group types of musicians
1) Hobbies - not making money from music - (85% will not spend a dime on plugins either way)
2) On the move - already working 2-4 hours a day, signed with label, not making money or a bit here and there (will pirate plugins but will buy as well)
3) Pro - this is their main work and income (will buy)

Why this is important? Because the 2 first groups are the biggest market, that most of them the vendor is losing money on. If PluginPlay focusing on expanding this market, the vendors can win a new eco-system of users, what they couldn't have before.

There are so many benefits here to the vendors and users.

But the truth is that this type of service is not for everybody, and I knew from the begging we will have companies and users that will love it, and not. However we determine to get to a point when both parties win.
rifftrax
KVRAF
 
1683 posts since 26 Feb, 2008

Postby rifftrax; Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:05 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

PakotecSamples wrote:So our vendors already losing huge amount of cash either way...


Non sequitur. Just because people use pirated software does not mean they would be converted to being paid customers if the cracks were eliminated. They are purely opportunists.
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Chapelle
KVRian
 
1051 posts since 27 Dec, 2007

Postby Chapelle; Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:44 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

PakotecSamples wrote:with PluginPlay they have the option to at least have the users details, to market about new products, and try to make you guys paying customers.

Can you clarify under which circumstances the vendors get the user's details? I mean, if I sign up for your service, will you simply forward my details to all the vendors that use your service, and will I then end up getting lots of marketing emails that I didn't ask for? :?
PakotecSamples
KVRer
 
7 posts since 22 May, 2013, from Israel

Postby PakotecSamples; Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:11 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

Chapelle wrote:
PakotecSamples wrote:with PluginPlay they have the option to at least have the users details, to market about new products, and try to make you guys paying customers.

Can you clarify under which circumstances the vendors get the user's details? I mean, if I sign up for your service, will you simply forward my details to all the vendors that use your service, and will I then end up getting lots of marketing emails that I didn't ask for? :?


No it doesnt work like that.
1) You will never get promotion emails without you approving it (by law).
2) Same as you are going to the vendors website when you registering and they have your details it works in a similar way. Every vendor manage his own account and users. Means that when you install plugins from a specific vendor. You are his user. They are obligated to give you 100% support in case you need it.
As example if you install plugin from company A, company B will never have anything about you.
But even if you are user of Company A without your permission they cannot send you or contact you in anyway.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
11097 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:21 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

PakotecSamples wrote:I need to clarify few things. Most of what you all saying is true...the good and the bad things.
But the main problem is that I feel that you see only black and white without the middle.


So, no, you're kind of wrong there. But let's be clear, I get what you're trying to do, the Steam of plugins, and I wish you well, but, be careful with your analysis. My post is just off the cuff speculation, but you haven't really countered it for the most part.

1) We clearly mention UP TO 10hrs. means that we will have some plugins that will be much less.


Ok, sure, that will solve some problems, and create others. It still doesn't eliminate the ability to A/B with great ease, which, IMO, will kill a lot of sales. "Oh, yeah, these EQs aren't that much different." It's the ease that is important here, not just the fact that you can do that now. However, the 10 hr plugins will still be there and competition will force longer windows since everyone is on the same platform. Look at pricing of ios apps to see how this works.

2) Whatever musician, a newbie or a senior thinks about the industry can think how much he want. But numbers are facts. Real research is a fact.


LOL, ok. No, numbers, especially polls where the information is volunteered are not facts, they are just a statistical sample of a population with most likely one hell of a lot of bias that you have to be careful about. This isn't something that I"m new to, but, ok. I get what you're trying to say, but you wouldn't be the first startup to overvalue their understanding of what constitutes "real research."

For years we were interviewing musicians on how much they are working a day, how many plugins they use, how much they buy, how much they pirate, how much they spend. We did it with 1000 musicians, from different countries and different social economic life.

42.7% musicians are working on music between 1 to up to 4 hours a day minimum.
45.1% of musicians use 10 and more plugins in one single project.
60.1% pirated plugins... what?? a shock??

So our vendors already losing huge amount of cash either way...with PluginPlay they have the option to at least have the users details, to market about new products, and try to make you guys paying customers. And if not $100 per plugin, because not everybody can afford it...at least $10 per month... without it...this 60% they dont even know who they are.


None of this really addresses what I'm talking about. My prediction is that short term rentals will kill sales...eventually. This isn't something that you can study easily because it is purely observational, i.e., not experimental, and there is no way to gather data. This must be viewed like the study of economics where often "real research" is based on what is little more than thought experiments and analysis/modeling.

The key idea here, however, is that the very market that you are trying to create will change the dynamics of the existing market because they have the same customer base. Look at video rentals vs movie theatre or even video sales for example. And by example, I don't mean that you can learn how the market will change, only that the market did change and you have to be able to adapt. I'm not convinced that is going to be possible with the plugin market, we'll see, of course.

There are so many benefits here to the vendors and users.


You think, but I disagree, and that was the point of my post.

But the truth is that this type of service is not for everybody, and I knew from the begging we will have companies and users that will love it, and not. However we determine to get to a point when both parties win.


Of course, but I think that's going to be much harder than you think. If you experience any success, someone else is going to copy you, there goes your convenience because now we have competition and we're roughly back to where we are now. This is why many of us prefer vendors who have similar systems, e.g., NI, PA, Waves, even Pace, when we're shopping for new plugins. Those systems ALSO manage the same customer pain point that you're identifying.

There's a fundamental difference between our interests in this conversation as well. You're trying to sell something, I'm just interested in discussing these trends, so it's not likely that "our" conversation will lead to much that's fruitful, I'm really talking to other members of KVR who also interested in discussing these trends. Keep that in mind.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Touch The Universe
KVRAF
 
3286 posts since 2 Oct, 2008

Postby Touch The Universe; Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:26 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

Are all the installers and registration of serials consolidated into one download? So I hit one button, everything downloads, installs, and registers? That would be sweet.
Last edited by Touch The Universe on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PakotecSamples
KVRer
 
7 posts since 22 May, 2013, from Israel

Postby PakotecSamples; Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:04 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

Touch The Universe wrote:Are all the installers and registration of serials consolidation into one download? So I hit one button, everything downloads, installs, and registers? That would be sweet.


Every-time that you install a plugin, its goes to your favorites list (Home Screen). In case you doing the a rent, the plugin is already active.

In the next updates you will have a "recover" button. This function will be for one purpose only, "to recover". Means that you can use it as example after a computer format, click..and all your plugins that you were using before will be installed one after another and the once that you are renting will be automatically active.
Fernando Carvalho
KVRist
 
141 posts since 5 Jul, 2004

Postby Fernando Carvalho; Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:31 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

Interesting project.

I like the idea of simplifying the demo/install/register process.

About the renting part. Well, I would like something more in the rent-to-own side. Let´s say, if you have rented a plugin long enough to have spent the whole value I think it should be licensed as a paid plugin. Maybe some plugins are not used the enough months to obtain a perpetual license and others are. Once you have a couple of plugins it doesn´t stop you to keep testing and renting more, all we know that this is a never ending addiction don´t we? :-)
Armagibbon
KVRian
 
681 posts since 20 Apr, 2017

Postby Armagibbon; Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:25 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

This is what... demos and all that? Man I aint got any prob buyin up plugs I like. Tryin em aint all that hard neither. Aint ever gonna rent what I can try... cus if its good? Im gonna buy it for good. See I know whats gonna happen. Free demos and trials are gonna die cus they know the plug aint any good in demo mode and peeps wanna try it for a good long time to figure if its got legs. Rent to demo is wack shit. Nah let me see a unified return policy instead ahahahaha
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Burillo
KVRAF
 
2896 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:15 am Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

what, no xkcd links?

reminds me of Kazrog PluginUpdate.
From Russia with love
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antic604
KVRian
 
1116 posts since 4 Jan, 2017, from Warsaw, Poland

Postby antic604; Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:25 pm Re: PluginPlay.co - an attempt to unify VST environment?!

Armagibbon wrote:This is what... demos and all that? Man I aint got any prob buyin up plugs I like. Tryin em aint all that hard neither. Aint ever gonna rent what I can try... cus if its good? Im gonna buy it for good. See I know whats gonna happen. Free demos and trials are gonna die cus they know the plug aint any good in demo mode and peeps wanna try it for a good long time to figure if its got legs. Rent to demo is wack shit. Nah let me see a unified return policy instead ahahahaha


No, with this service you can still BUY the plugins but it'll consolidate the management of them - installation, updates - under one account, so no logging to different sites, remembering passwords, d/l installers, etc.
Live 10 // Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4
Music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604
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