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Hink
Rad Grandad
 
27103 posts since 5 Sep, 2003, from Downeast Maine

Postby Hink; Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:56 am Re: why is it hard to write good music?

jancivil wrote:of quality vs not quality? whatever, it's the subject of the thread at this point. I make qualitative distinctions when I create a piece of music, or when I played guitar. I try for 'good'. :shrug:
So that's not for everyone? I guess so.


I never said that, my point is simply I dont have the right to tell another what is good and what isn't when it comes to music and I really have no intention of letting another decide that for me either. There is no right and wrong for me here, I am not going to debate whether my feelings are valid or not, I am not offended by the quality of other's stuff. With as much has my music has brought to my life if they are doing the same awesome. For me it isn't a competition, if I decide that I dont like something I simply dont listen to it or tune it out.

Trust me there is a lot of stuff I dislike, in fact 100's of songs on my ipod, phone, kindle, in my computer, on cd and on tape, right here, right now. Denise and I shared a lot when we came to music but we did have our differences, often I would endure stuff I really dislike but it wasn't a problem and surely I was not going to try and push her to only listen to things I liked. Now I just dont take them off my devices because I listen to random all the time and every so often just for second I hear a song and I feel like she's still around. (but I do skip it in short order like I would do every time she wasn't in the room. :oops: ).

Those songs may not be good in my view, maybe they are not of high enough quality for you either but that foesn't change the fact they something good for me. I need nothing more from the music I make or listen to, I have no problem with it. :shrug:
got any good fish stories? Let minnow
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
11097 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:52 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

Hink wrote:
jancivil wrote:of quality vs not quality? whatever, it's the subject of the thread at this point. I make qualitative distinctions when I create a piece of music, or when I played guitar. I try for 'good'. :shrug:
So that's not for everyone? I guess so.


I never said that


Right!?! Moreover though, if you have no objective measure then exactly what are you basing your definition of good on if not your own taste and opinion of what is good?
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harryupbabble
KVRian
 
1171 posts since 19 Mar, 2012, from Babbleon

Postby harryupbabble; Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:28 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

Hooj wrote:.... they believe that some people are somehow "born" with the ability to compose music.


Why wouldn't I believe that?
There are people born...
... that can survive apocalypses and plagues and/or have strong immune systems resistant to viruses.
... with mutated genes that causes them to have super-strong bones and might be born to be boxers.
... with a variation of the gene DEC2 that allows them to physiologically need less sleep than average people. Niccolo Tesla perhaps?
... with muscle hypertrophy which would make them super-strong.
... a Sherpa, built for high altitude.
... with the inability to feel pain.
... with tetrachromacy, a type of super color vision that allows them to add a unique flair to their artwork.

Maybe Van Gogh and a lot of other painters had tetrachromacy? And if that could be true with vision why can't it be true with sound?
Maybe there are people that could see sound and therefore give them an edge at composing music? Eddie Van Halen talked about the "brown sound"?
ah böwakawa poussé poussé
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vurt
addled muppet weed
 
36569 posts since 25 Jan, 2003, from through the looking glass

Postby vurt; Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:54 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

monet suffered from cataracts.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
 
36569 posts since 25 Jan, 2003, from through the looking glass

Postby vurt; Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

or it may have been manet?

which ever one painted "waterlilies"
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JJ_Jettflow
KVRian
 
735 posts since 23 Jan, 2011

Postby JJ_Jettflow; Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:05 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

Mike777 wrote:Today we have almost every musical instrument and recording tool available, and while I hear a lot of great music productions being posted, it's too often the music composition is just so-so.

Performing is made easier for instruments using midi. Recording is easier. This exposes the one thing our PC's can not do for us, writing the music. Writing a good song, or instrumental work, with a great melody and song structure etc, is truly the hardest part.

So is writing great music more a craft or a talent?



Doing anything well is hard.
Mike777
KVRist
 
436 posts since 8 Oct, 2005

Postby Mike777; Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:38 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

jancivil wrote:... it's as absurd to think someone that lacks information and is incurious should expect their opinion to be on equal footing as someone knowledgable as it is for a color blind person's view of a painting (using color of course) is to be considered on the same footing as someone with a developed sense of color. To deny that is to deny that things can be known about anything, here about music...


I had to read this several times, I think it's a great analogy.

Someone who knows nothing of music theory and counterpoint can like and enjoy Bach with all their mind and heart just as much as a highest degree music theory professor. But I do think those who studied theory and counterpoint hear Bach with an enhanced appreciation. What Bach did with counterpoint is like what L. da Vinci did with art and sculpture.

Someone who studies sculpture and art finds da Vinci among the top few greatest. And Bach remains as one of the greatest composers decade after decade, century after century. All the songs we create and post will be long forgotten but they will still be playing Bach a century from now.

There's a reason it's hard to get accepted into Julliard school of music. Chances are 7.2%.

The food analogy I liked too. Sometimes I like McDonald's or a piece of candy. I know it's bad food. But you don't know it's bad if that's all you eat all the time. It tastes good, so it must be good food. Unless you've learned better. In the same way labels assemble 'tasty' sounds, loops, chords, riffs, etc into a music 'blender' and out pops a song. That song does catch the ear. But it's just another flavor of McDonalds and candy.
Last edited by Mike777 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mike777
KVRist
 
436 posts since 8 Oct, 2005

Postby Mike777; Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:48 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

JJ_Jettflow wrote:
Mike777 wrote:Today we have almost every musical instrument and recording tool available, and while I hear a lot of great music productions being posted, it's too often the music composition is just so-so.

Performing is made easier for instruments using midi. Recording is easier. This exposes the one thing our PC's can not do for us, writing the music. Writing a good song, or instrumental work, with a great melody and song structure etc, is truly the hardest part.

So is writing great music more a craft or a talent?



Doing anything well is hard.


I hear you. But some great songs where written very quickly. "Yesterday" was written in less than 1 minute.

I think the answer is it takes both craft and talent. McCartney learned the craft of songwriting by 'osmosis', soaking in other great songs until the craft was fully understood. But writing great new songs must have been talent I think.
ShawnG
KVRian
 
589 posts since 27 Apr, 2005

Postby ShawnG; Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:45 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

First and foremost, If you are using the terms "good" and "bad" you are not being objective, it is always an opinion, and is always subjective, no matter how universally held of an opinion it is. really. end of argument. there is no such thing as objective good and bad.

As for whether an "expert" opinion is worth more than a layman or ignorant opinion? Sure, but with limits. there's many factors at play, and music is too broad of a discipline to allow for total expertise anyway. To wit, there's no reason to trust the opinion of a world class classical composer on the subject of the best Norwegian death metal album over that of a standard fan of that genre, unless said composer moonlights in that field. Additionally the process of becoming a musician in whatever form gives that person not only experience and knowledge, but also a set of biases that need to be taken into account when taking their opinions at face value. anything from instrument or form preferences, to a growing disdain for simpler compositions as not being challenging, to as far as simple resentment when someone hamfists 3 2-finger powerchords into a platinum selling smash hit, while our Julliard boy who practices 12 hours a day has trouble paying the rent.

In the end, this is art. if that art satisfies the needs of its creator for self expression, and has the intended effect on its intended audience, I would call that good, whether its clever enough for the intelligentsia or not. The opinions of that audience and that creator are more important than the opinions of others, no matter how learned.
himalaya
KVRAF
 
4798 posts since 23 Mar, 2006, from pendeLondonmonium

Postby himalaya; Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:14 pm Re: why is it hard to write good music?

vurt wrote:or it may have been manet?

which ever one painted "waterlilies"


Or.... it may have been a Minuet?
Dancing about the waterlilies.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
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do_androids_dream
KVRAF
 
2769 posts since 26 Oct, 2007, from Kent, UK

Postby do_androids_dream; Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:20 am Re: why is it hard to write good music?

jancivil wrote:

It's a completely vacuous notion, that there is just what you like and don't like. Already answered, there are people whose 'like' factor has evolved with better information and a larger sample base of music to consider.

When I see that I think, 'what a great excuse for avoiding living up to any kind of standard'.


I completely stand by it. Art is about expression and connecting to people through that expression - not meeting 'standards' whatever that means.
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MadDogE134
KVRist
 
118 posts since 25 Nov, 2007

Postby MadDogE134; Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:23 am Re: why is it hard to write good music?

maybe i just don't understand people. music or any art for that matter is a gift given to you. it is for you. you should do it to please yourself and you alone. now if others can appreciate it then it is shared... but if you feel the 'need' to share then that 'need' is nothing more than an ego or a self esteem problem. if you please yourself then that is the point for which it was given. if others find value it in then it is a shared gift. bottom line is... please yourself. you can create the best possible thing and there will STILL be those that don't appreciate it or like it. don't base your self worth on others... they will ultimately let you down. it is a spiritual thing. cheers
Last edited by MadDogE134 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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AsPeeXXXVIII
KVRist
 
309 posts since 17 Aug, 2015, from Finland

Postby AsPeeXXXVIII; Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:26 am Re: why is it hard to write good music?

Practice makes perfect. As clichéd as that may sound, it rings true in many ways.
"Creativity is a lot like sex. When it's spontaneous, it's good, but forcing it makes it bad."
My metal music | My electronic music
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JJ_Jettflow
KVRian
 
735 posts since 23 Jan, 2011

Postby JJ_Jettflow; Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:27 am Re: why is it hard to write good music?

Mike777 wrote:
JJ_Jettflow wrote:
Mike777 wrote:Today we have almost every musical instrument and recording tool available, and while I hear a lot of great music productions being posted, it's too often the music composition is just so-so.

Performing is made easier for instruments using midi. Recording is easier. This exposes the one thing our PC's can not do for us, writing the music. Writing a good song, or instrumental work, with a great melody and song structure etc, is truly the hardest part.

So is writing great music more a craft or a talent?



Doing anything well is hard.


I hear you. But some great songs where written very quickly. "Yesterday" was written in less than 1 minute.

I think the answer is it takes both craft and talent. McCartney learned the craft of songwriting by 'osmosis', soaking in other great songs until the craft was fully understood. But writing great new songs must have been the talent I think.


I think anytime you have a hit song from a signed band, you have to realize there are alot of people helping them behind the scenes. It was George Martin's idea to use the string quartet in "Yeserday" which took a basic ballad and turned it into something unique.

Almost all singed artists will have people that pour over their songs, if they write them, making changes to increase it chances of being a hit...especiallly in pop/rock.

This is not to say these artists to not posess any talent, but having professionals help you certainly will make your songs more marketable and give those artists who go it alone and hope to achieve the same results a more difficult time of reaching their goal. It will also make it appear the pro artist is much more talented than the actually are.
Mike777
KVRist
 
436 posts since 8 Oct, 2005

Postby Mike777; Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:08 am Re: why is it hard to write good music?

Rodney Clawson is a succesfull country music songwriter, writting for many top country music artists. And while I don't care to write in that genre, I think his songwriter advice applies to any style of music.

"Of course, you can’t teach songwriting," he clarifies. "You can only encourage people to do it, and help them to sort out for themselves what they want to achieve, and get a list of exercises together that improves the craft, and gives them more access to the craft of writing good songs.”

In his role as instructor, the biggest trait he strives for is "patience -- it’s really important to be patient. It’s not too different than what I learned early on as a producer, which is to be of service to the artist, to help them realize their vision. To be an editor, a kind-hearted editor, but to be honest. It can be done with kindness. There's editors who edit with a red pen, and ones who edit with a green pen.”

I’ve often said to young songwriters when they want to write with me, ‘Let’s take a stab at ten songs, and we might get one really good one.”

https://www.musicstartshere.org/news-events/musicnews/artist-news/32800-rodney-crowell-records-the-hits-he-wrote-for-others-on-upcoming-acoustic-classics-album
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