Careers in music/ audio engineering

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I'm 30 and looking at what I want to do with life going forward. Audio engineering is what I want to do and am considering doing a degree online to help me have structured learning and to obtain the qualifications. Can anyone recommend whether having degree is massively important in engineering or is getting work experience a better way to learn?

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Great question. It depends on how deeply you want to get into it.

There are basically three areas or disciplines. If all you want is to get behind a mixing board at a studio or run your own studio as a producer, then a brief technical program ranging from a few weeks to one year at the most is all you really need. I went to the Los Angeles recording school back in 97 and their program was only 6 weeks but very intensive and more than enough preparation.

The second area of audio as a profession is to work for a company making plugins as a C++ programmer. Any smart person can teach themselves to program, so really you don't need the school at all, but actually getting such a job usually requires a full 4 year degree or at least a two year at a community college. This is one area where a degree is more than just a piece of paper since learning to program well can really be helped a lot with some formal knowledge of data structures and programming techniques, and probably more important than work experience, though having both is the best.

The third area is actually creating the audio algorithms which requires DSP. Digital Signal Processing is very intensive in the math domain and actually requires a solid understanding of complex numbers and Fourier Transforms and such. The mathematics of DSP is usually the step in math coming after vector calculus and matrix algebra, and a degree in pure math or EE would place DSP approximately in junior year. I personally find DSP to be at the very limits of what I can do mathematically, and all the DSP engineers I ever worked with at companies had a 5 year Masters in DSP to even be able to understand it. So a degree here is critical for an official job. That being said lot's of people here at KVR teach themselves DSP and all it really requires is a good brain and a lot of patience. So if you just wanted to get started actually programming a plugin then you'd be better off just grabbing Will Pirkle's books and dive into it yourself to make sure you like it before going to school for 5 years. "Rack AFX" is the best framework I know to learn plugin development.

I'll close with my favorite story which really answers the heart of your question. Back in college taking my electrical engineering courses I hated school and would rather have been playing music than studying. I had to take a two year series of math courses on DSP which were pure torture. None of my teachers said a single word the whole two years about what you could ever possibly use a Fast Fourier Transform for in real life, and if one of them had mentioned in passing that the math we were learning was the foundation of all audio processing, I must have missed it. Now 25 years later when I had to actually write my own plugin all that DSP math I learned is making sense and really coming in handy. Now I'm thinking how lucky it was I took all those DSP courses. Hope that helps.

Also, download JUCE, it's the best audio programming framework on the planet.
Last edited by FathomSynth on Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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I don't think the second point and further is what the OP asked for.

Most people I know that are audio engineer (in the classical sense, not DSP programmers) have a brief training (if any official qualifications) but loads of experience and people they know in the business.
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FathomSynth wrote: Second level is to work for a company making plugins as a C++ programmer.[...]
Third level is actually creating the audio algorithms which requires DSP.
NO. Just NO.

Neither of these has anything to do with "audio engineering" in the sense of working in a studio (which is what "audio engineering" usually refers to), it's rather more like painting vs. paint chemistry. These are NOT some sort of "levels" but rather completely different disciplines. If the OP is interested in plugin development, then that's another thing.

Also DSP development is mostly math. While you'll probably want to know a bit of programming (in any language really) to develop DSP algorithms, you don't really need to be a software developer to do that and C++ software development is really yet another discipline. Now in practice, especially since the plugin industry has a lot of small companies, you'll find that quite a few people working in the industry actually can do a varying amount of both software development and DSP development.. but really they are quite different disciplines as well. Doesn't make any sense to try to put some sort of "level" ordering on these things either.

But none of the plugin development stuff is useful at all for someone who's interested in audio engineering in the sense of recording and producing music and/or other audio works.

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Be more than a bit skeptical with any audio engineering school. Some larger studios started to get certified to offer college diplomas as a way to keep their doors open given the competition from smaller project studios which has only intensified. If I was taking the courses, I would be doing so with the idea that it was giving me a background, not a pathway to a career. Go in with your eyes wide open, and with realistic expectations.


chris979899 wrote:I'm 30 and looking at what I want to do with life going forward. Audio engineering is what I want to do and am considering doing a degree online to help me have structured learning and to obtain the qualifications. Can anyone recommend whether having degree is massively important in engineering or is getting work experience a better way to learn?

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Thank you for taking the time to reply everyone. I've read through each reply. The course I was focused on was the point blank one online. The only section that puts me off is where you learn how the producers made the biggest selling hits, but I imagine you have to learn modules that you don't have the greatest interest in in every degree. This is the course..

https://www.pointblankmusicschool.com/c ... ee-online/

It's doing it with middlesex University of London so won't be a sham I imagine.

To be honest I think university is for me now as I love learning and want to learn as much as I possibly can whilst producing nd becoming a sound engineer. I just wanted to hear people's views who are already in the industry.

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While it is true that in most fields the programmers and DSP engineers are in completely different tracks with the DSP people really just doing the math and not so much programming. I saw this when I worked in communications and voice processing. However in audio and plugin development it tends to work differently and if you research who are the best DSP engineers in the field, they are also great programmers since the efficiency of the algorithms requires knowledge of how they will be actually implemented. The folks at u-He are a great example, as well as the founder of Lennar Digital who make Sylenth. Another example is Will Pirkle who has a PHD in DSP and is very influential in music audio for his DSP algorithms, but if you look at his C++ source code he is clearly no stranger to programming and he spends equal time on both the Math behind the algorithms as well as their C and C++ implementations. When I worked for Ensoniq the lead DSP engineer also had a PHD in DSP but he also programmed all the algorithms himself and did a significant amount of the software development. Another good example is to read the job descriptions posted by companies like Spectrasonics in CA who make Omnisphere. They clearly require superior skills in both programming and DSP, as well as a working knowledge of studio engineering and mixing, which covers all three areas.

However, you are right from the perspective that the types of programming done are very different since programming the GUI would typically be done by an application developer and algorithms by the DSP engineer.

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You are better off just finding a job in some studio or attending live courses where you can actually connect with people, connections are really important, more than degree.

Tell us more about you, how much experience you have with all this?
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

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It's hard to say because I'm pretty obsessive but I have no experience or education within the subject. I like to read a lot so I guess I'm self educated. Currently reading david brynes how music works. If anyone could recommend any books that would be great. I also watch every video I can find I especially love watching producers do lectures like Tony visconti, butch vig etc. My background is being in a band from a young age but also being obsessed by electronic music especially techno. My love for modern techno isn't great but can still appreciate some new stuff. Bands I love are like radiohead, bjork, folk music like sandy Denny and Bert jansch etc. To be honest I just adore intellectual music of all genres. I have ableton 10, an elektron digitakt, sylenth1 and some free vsts like charlatan. I dj and have cdjs nd turntables but I'm not interested in djing live in the current scene. I think that's pretty much all I can tell. I have no want to be famous or known but love the idea of being an intelligent artist.

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Look for "Dance Music Manual" by Rick Snoman.

Well, will go in circles, DJ-ing is good way to make connections, that's what is all about, connections, if you know the right people, you will work, so attend regular/not online school and try to connect with folks from industry, go there to show off and ofc. pick some brains on the way, but look at that school just for the chance to get with right people.

Right now, look for mixing/remixing competitions and try to give the best like you have clients waiting for you, have a taste of deadlines, expectations and all that funk, you need experience with actual work, not just theory.

Volunteer as much as you can anywhere you can, play gig's even for free, just get yourself everywhere, it's not about being famous and self obsessed, it's about having good business connections, people need to know about you.

Invest every buck in the studio, start small and do demo's and whatever you can for locals, there's always some rappers in the need, take advantage of that, start small with one good mic and get some stamina in recording sessions and what comes after.

But do it, don't just sit there learning, try to work as much as you can, that's where true results are shown, start small and don't look back.
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

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As has already been suggested, if you want to take a degree then choose one that offers practical experience. Otherwise, if you can find any work with a studio, that would be a big help.

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This thread is making me imperfectly remember an article in, maybe Future Music(?) that I read years ago. It talked extensively about the schools in GB that scammed wannabe audio engineers into thinking that a degree would lead to careers in recording studios. They were abetted by the government's handing out scholarship money for this. For a lot of relatively aimless youth who liked music, this was a handy way to put off getting stuck in some crappy soul-destroying job. They churned out vast numbers of graduates for an ever-decreasing number of openings. The schools weren't scammy in that they actually did teach you useful stuff. But it didn't lead to a job in a glutted, dying market.

If I were you, I'd to a LOT of research about placement rates and career trajectories before splashing out on a school and potentially wasting years of your life. Apparently, the traditional way to work your way up in a British studio was to start out as a 'tea boy', and be gradually given more responsibilities when you demonstrate competence and dedication to the craft.

I have no personal experience with this system, but I really doubt that there are more jobs and fewer candidates now than there were in years past.

Tl;dr -- Zexila's post makes a lot of sense to me.

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Thank you everybody it's all very helpful

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These are interesting times, one don't need to book expensive studio to make a record, even more famous folks are working from home/project studios, so chances you get into one of those big famous studios is very small, but chance you work on your own successfully quite big.

There's really good and affordable gear too and don't believe anyone that tells you can't make good record with it, they are lying or incompetent, sometimes their perception is really out of touch, small nuances become so big, but in reality, difference is not that big or worth the investment in many cases. You don't need some famous gear from past to make good modern record, plenty of plugins these days are just phenomenal and many DAW stock ones, so don't fall from marketing blurbs of some vendors and some folks on forums.

It's imperative to wear as many hats as you can, to be artist, producer and recording/mixing engineer, that gives you so much power to run your studio from your chair, to deliver your vision on all fronts, also to be as affordable as you can. That's what I notice locally, people turn out more and more to more competent guys that work solo, today wearing one hat isn't enough, only most famous really can do it successfully.

There's not much money or recognition in underground electronic movements and one can really establish himself there, but that can turn out to be what isn't paying your rent this month, but on our luck, electronic music is really popular and you can do pop music these days so easily, just don't get yourself too hung out on genres or dancefloor, pop music is electronic as it gets, but memorable one, not just filler dancefloor banger tracks that go for ~7 minutes, no, you need to really make musical content with verses and chorusses, plenty of hooks, but it's joy doing pop music these days.

Don't lock yourself into artsy mindsets if you are planning to live from music, be open minded, take chances and explore everything, demand for new wave artists is higher than ever, as I said pop music is electronic, many are getting out of touch being not exposed to it whole their life, now it's just flavors or sub genres emerging into it, new folks with fresh ideas and good backgrounds are getting more and more into it, result is obvious, you can hear it on radio, it's just hip hop/trap and EDM, I don't recall hearing rock-ish track on popular pop radio stations, so yeah, take advantage of that.

Start locally, start small, try to do what can be done, it might pay off big time. Good luck!
This entire forum is wading through predictions, opinions, barely formed thoughts, drama, and whining. If you don't enjoy that, why are you here? :D ShawnG

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Rick Beato on youtube has lots to say on this topic, none of it good.
look for his vids, and search among them, there's about 5-10 on this topic.
summary: schools are scams, they don't teach you anything, there's no paid work, everything's internships where you learn nothing and eventually give up, $100k in tuition debt.
here's one of his vids: "The Big Question: How To Make a Living In Music?"
Please note that Rick's got at least one masters in performance of musical instruments, and plays every instrument, and has as ton of other skills besides, and knows people. Apparently it helps to be a multi-musician at a pro level, and an engineer, and know people.

Based on Rick Beato, I'd say keep your day job and learn/create at night. You're better off without the debt, since that's a dead end anyhow.

FathomSynth: Wow, fascinating stuff. That was a real peek behind the curtain there for me. Thanks much!

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