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Papelmedia redistributing free soundfonts?

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.

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ceenda
KVRian
 
1022 posts since 7 Sep, 2004

Postby ceenda; Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:55 am Papelmedia redistributing free soundfonts?

I was thinking of picking up the Papelmedia soundfont library as it was cheap and I needed some easy samples from a number of instruments, however, while I was searching for reviews, I came across this on Hammersound forums:

http://www.hammersound.net/cgi-bin/BBS/ ... ast_read=0

It's dated January 2005, so I guess it's recent.

But the jist of it is, someone is claiming that their free soundfont was packaged up by Papelmedia and given out as their own, with the presets modified slightly.

I guess if the soundfont is given away freely, then it's possible for Papelmedia to do this, but doesn't it break copyright laws for intellectual property?
kevvvvv
vvvvvvv
 
1831 posts since 23 Oct, 2000, from skelmersdale, west lancs, uk

Postby kevvvvv; Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:30 am

Interesting.

I have papelmedia too :wink:

He's always updating it. It's on version something or other by now.

Plus he adds those amazing operatic solo voices - which was why I bought it.

In the world of sf2s they're always ripping each other off, claiming that person A's samples were badly looped and needing fixing, or blah blah I reset all the volumes, or, I used some of these and added some of those, improved them, more balanced set etc

Like it or not, sf2 is a non-pro standard.

I'd like anttu, the alleged originator of papelmedia, to prove he sampled the choirs and orchestra necessary to produce a GM soundfont. Wouldn't surprise me the slightest if he "borrowed" a few samples or two himself :roll:

If I'm wrong I'll take my hat off and apologise :P
Member 12, Presonus Studio One (always), AEON (so controllable), DM-7, Blue II (outstanding) Omnisphere, Kontakt, Alchemy, RP Delay (world's best delay presets) Plug&Mix VIP Collection (great tools)
ceenda
KVRian
 
1022 posts since 7 Sep, 2004

Postby ceenda; Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:48 am

Nah, I agree, there's no way of proving that it's not the other way round. I've no doubt that the papelmedia soundfonts are recorded in person. Why go to the effort of recording a complete orchestra then to go and cut & paste free soundfonts from other places.

I love the papelmedia free samples (they are usually the ones I reach for in my SF2 directory first). I was just curious about what the issues were about taking samples and fixing them.

Even though I own an AKAI choir sample library, I've used E.S.C. to make them into SF2s and modified the envelopes etc. to customize them to my own needs.

I think "anttu" was trying to suggest that he built his own Brass SF2 which Papelmedia went on to use in supplementing their own library?

EDIT - well, there's certainly something odd going on.

I just read a note coming from Papelmedia at www.sf2midi.com and they admit to redistributing soundfonts. In other words they find free soundfonts and sell them. That does violate intellectual property rights. Personally, I like to take the moral high ground, and I make my soundfonts free to everyone (because I often build them from from other free soundfonts as well, but I atleast modify the samples). Papelmedia is just about being greedy.


I was comparing some of the Papelmedia soundfonts to other free ones that are doing the rounds, like the SJO and Squidfont orchestral soundfonts. The one on the left is SJO Violo Tremolo preset and the one on the right is Papelmedia's Tremolo Strings:

Image

This isn't necessarily bad in itself, but the Papelmedia website gives the impression that they recorded all the soundfonts through some German orchestral group.

Pffft, I dunno. :)
duncanparsons
KVRAF
 
8375 posts since 11 Apr, 2003, from now on the flat

Postby duncanparsons; Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:54 pm

..they seem to have given up on the 'download of the month' thing as well.. wonder if it's related..

DSP
Image
useruseruser
KVRian
 
1331 posts since 1 Sep, 2004

Postby useruseruser; Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:18 pm

ceenda wrote:I was thinking of picking up the Papelmedia soundfont library as it was cheap and I needed some easy samples from a number of instruments, however, while I was searching for reviews, I came across this on Hammersound forums:

http://www.hammersound.net/cgi-bin/BBS/ ... ast_read=0

It's dated January 2005, so I guess it's recent.

But the jist of it is, someone is claiming that their free soundfont was packaged up by Papelmedia and given out as their own, with the presets modified slightly.

I guess if the soundfont is given away freely, then it's possible for Papelmedia to do this, but doesn't it break copyright laws for intellectual property?


That's actually a phenomenon widely practicized in the soundfont world.

50 percent of the available free soundfonts are duplicates. Many collections include merely one and the same samples. And a large amount of soundfonts are ripped stuff from commercial hardware romplers (resampled).

Also illegal collections taken from commercial sampling CDs can be found to hundereds.

But distributing commercial soundfonts compiled from free soundfonts is really a shame!

But probably there are also own samples inside and at least they spent the time to collect and prepare them... :roll:

Then they should keep the copyrights and list them inside the distribution!

There are always people trying to make money out of freeware and public domain stuff in shameless manner.

f**k them!
Last edited by useruseruser on Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MrM
KVRian
 
1444 posts since 16 Jul, 2003, from Zwollywood, The Netherlands (Europe)

Postby MrM; Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:20 pm

I have downloaded lots and lots of soundfonts, even bought some CD's.
And in my humble opinion, the Papelmedia free ones are often badly looped.
Try playing a sustained note in a high octave and you'll hear some ticks.

Of all free ones, he provided, I only kept a handful, the rest was awful.

Whether he makes them himself, or not, I even disliked his male and female operasinger.

Evenso, I thank Papelmedia for providing free stuff.
Beggars can't be choosers :)

As for paying for a GM SF2 set?
There are so many free ones out there, I don't see the need.
-- Regards MrM --
useruseruser
KVRian
 
1331 posts since 1 Sep, 2004

Postby useruseruser; Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:34 pm

Whatsoever:
Here are the contact informations (in German):

Code: Select all
Simon Tristan Papel e. K.
Neuenhoferstraße 3
D-53639 Königswinter-Hühnerberg
 
Mail: webmaster@papelmedia.de
 
Telefon: 02244 / 7931
 
Das Gewerbe ist gemäß §14 GewO oder § 55 GewO in Königswinter angemeldet.
 
Nach § 19 Abs. 1 Satz 1 UStG wird die Umsatzsteuer nicht erhoben, weil der Umsatz zuzüglich der darauf entfallenden Steuer im vorangegangenen Kalenderjahr 16.620 € nicht überstiegen hat und im laufenden Kalenderjahr 50.000 € nicht übersteigen wird (vgl. Abschn. 246 Abs. 4 UStR).
 
Ein Namensrecht auf "Papelmedia" existiert!


Those guys actually take special care about their own trademarkes BUT treat all the people (from whom they actually ripped the stuff) with foots.

Also very nice: their tricky behaviour (to load images on their website, which actually try to be suggestive that they "do" sample entire orchestras themselves). Well in case of the choirs it may be true...

But the thread in the starters post actually shows very impressive, that tere is obviously something going heavyly wrong here.

I suggest to write an e-mail opinion to them:
webmaster@papelmedia.de

So maybe they are warned at least this way...

Incredible!
Jafo
KVRAF
 
1612 posts since 20 Dec, 2002, from State of Denial

Postby Jafo; Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:58 pm

kevvvvv wrote:Like it or not, sf2 is a non-pro standard.


Slightly OT, but this is painfully true.
"Wait... loot then burn? D'oh!"
Spe3D
KVRAF
 
3261 posts since 6 Sep, 2002, from United Kingdom & Opinions Will Travel :O)

Postby Spe3D; Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:13 pm

It violates copyright at its most basic.

A lot of free sample providers take a lot of time to create the sample – and often will enforce their copyright by saying (not for profit or sale in any form)

To rip a sound font into separate waves takes about 30 seconds if that – to re-compile another what?!, 1 minuet. Not impressive behaviour is it – to then sell off as your own? Or even to re-distribute without consent from the original creators of the samples?
useruseruser
KVRian
 
1331 posts since 1 Sep, 2004

Postby useruseruser; Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:21 pm

Right.
It seems they took not even the time to extract and modify the samples this way.

They obviously merely renamed the instruments and (probably) changed some parameters to finally "make it " their own.

Strange, that such behaviour not was "detected" earlier...
Caleb
KVRAF
 
4727 posts since 6 Sep, 2001, from Melbourne, Australia

Postby Caleb; Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:23 pm

ceenda wrote:I was comparing some of the Papelmedia soundfonts to other free ones that are doing the rounds, like the SJO and Squidfont orchestral soundfonts. The one on the left is SJO Violo Tremolo preset and the one on the right is Papelmedia's Tremolo Strings:


Just out of curiosity - with that comparison you did on the viola - was the wave file itself the same?

For all I know the naming is a standard or one could borrow the naming standard off the other (probably not a serious copyright issue :wink:).

However, I'm wondering if the wave file itself is the same wave file.

As I said - just a curiosity thing.

Caleb
Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.
P.T.
KVRAF
 
3534 posts since 15 Mar, 2003

Postby P.T.; Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:21 pm

I noticed (by the sound) that their piano was the same as one I already have.

I don't know who is ripping off who.
useruseruser
KVRian
 
1331 posts since 1 Sep, 2004

Postby useruseruser; Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:51 pm

Caleb wrote:
ceenda wrote:I was comparing some of the Papelmedia soundfonts to other free ones that are doing the rounds, like the SJO and Squidfont orchestral soundfonts. The one on the left is SJO Violo Tremolo preset and the one on the right is Papelmedia's Tremolo Strings:


Just out of curiosity - with that comparison you did on the viola - was the wave file itself the same?

For all I know the naming is a standard or one could borrow the naming standard off the other (probably not a serious copyright issue :wink:).

However, I'm wondering if the wave file itself is the same wave file.

As I said - just a curiosity thing.

Caleb


Same names and actually the (exact) same key mapping?
I think, it's the same instrument for sure.

Well, there could be the case, that the others have stolen the sounds from Papelmedia ... :hihi:
But the thread in the first post actually shows the real situation very obviously.

There are many suspicions more at http://www.sf2midi.com in the forum, including a very vague "statement" from that guy.

Many users have claimed the copyrights of soundfonts used by Papemedia. But the guy still acts this way.

Probably all the instrument samples (exept the choirs - but maybe those too) in this collection are "inherited" from several freeware soundfonts.

I see that the "Soul Oohs" (and some other instruments) are removed in the last version. This was (as I know) also a soundfont, which was initially shipped by a completely different original supplier at hammersound.com and probably voilated some original copyrights too...

As far I see, he (Papel) says nothing about the samples origin for some obvious reasons. Only a very generic Impressum with some vague general statements. He probably believes, that he is protected by this action. :hihi:

The well selected pictures on the website do this merely in an intented suggestive manner to imply "professionality" and wrong assumptions by the visitor and customers...

Nice try.
kevvvvv
vvvvvvv
 
1831 posts since 23 Oct, 2000, from skelmersdale, west lancs, uk

Postby kevvvvv; Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:24 am

Copyright is a minefield in the sf2 world.

http://www.sf2tomidi.com has Emu's Proteus presets blatantly ranked No 8 in its popularity charts.

I'm not trying to condone copyright theft, but with the cheap Extreme Sample Convertor available, who knows what they're buying these days :roll:

Meanwhile, I'd imagine all the novice user wants is a reasonably reliable GM set that's better than the one on their cheap soundcard.

Which is exactly what Papelmedia is aiming at as he offers 4 mp3 demos (no doubt using ripped midis) to compare with any existing sound card GM set.

Until someone comes up with a conclusive copyright claim, £30 for a 300mb sf2, that's double the size of the largest GM set that sf2midi.com has to offer, isn't that dreadful a price.

And it includes two opera singers who actually sound quite good with Diva.
Member 12, Presonus Studio One (always), AEON (so controllable), DM-7, Blue II (outstanding) Omnisphere, Kontakt, Alchemy, RP Delay (world's best delay presets) Plug&Mix VIP Collection (great tools)
Sascha Franck
KVRAF
 
12427 posts since 13 Nov, 2000, from Hannover / Germany

Postby Sascha Franck; Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:01 am

There's not much to say about this (rather obvious) situation, just:
What a dork!
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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