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The mighty cymbal swell!

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

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KVRer
 
2 posts since 17 Mar, 2010

Postby Dr. Thump; Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:35 pm The mighty cymbal swell!

So I have cubase 5 and I bought toontracks ez drummer a while ago...so far I think it sounds pretty decent, but for this one composition I need a few cymbal swells; toontrack doesn't seem to do that kind of thing, and I'm not certain that I can plunk down more money on software. Is there maybe a standalone vst that will do this? Is there maybe some sort of 'trick' to doing this in ez drummer? It seems as though doing something like playing 32nd notes and increasing the volume/velocity doesn't work (can hear the individual notes hitting the cymbal). I'm out of ideas...any thoughts?
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KVRAF
 
1715 posts since 19 May, 2006, from Nomadic (Chicago and San Francisco mostly)
    

Postby xybre; Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:36 pm

Dude, just reverse a regular cymbal, and then stretch it to the length you want :)
noise and beats: Negutyv Xeiro
gearlust: Wadorf Blofeld, Dave Smith MoPho, Roland JP-8000, Access Virus A, Korg Radias
machinecode by: u-he, Tone2, Stillwell, de la Mancha, Ugo, Camel, Togu, et al
KVRAF
 
40399 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:50 pm

first thing I thought of. I do it all the time :shrug:

As far as a real swell is concerned, it tricky. You've gotta have a decent midi controller, do ALLOT of midi editing, and have patience! Then remember to save it so you don't have to do that again!

Then again, I wonder if maybe there is a file that does that in ezdrummer.
KVRer
 
2 posts since 17 Mar, 2010

Postby Dr. Thump; Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:09 pm

Hmm, the reverse cymbal idea kinda sorta occurred to me but I wasn't sure if it was feasible. I think Cubase will let me export a midi part to an audio file, then I can re-import it and do a little editing magic...we'll see how it goes! :tu:
KVRist
 
47 posts since 30 Dec, 2009

Postby theprion; Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:44 pm

you need to use a sampler or edit the sample so that you can increase the attack time of the cymbal sample a little to cut off the attack and blur the sound together. And some creative reverb may also be required to mush all the cymbal tails together.
I was NapalmBob once ...
KVRAF
 
1800 posts since 23 Dec, 2003

Postby Dr.Wu; Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:03 pm

i use ready made samples to get the effect.
There are some cool ones in Project Sam and VSL with different length and intensities.
stk
KVRAF
 
2201 posts since 6 May, 2003, from au
 

Postby stk; Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:41 am

xybre wrote:Dude, just reverse a regular cymbal, and then stretch it to the length you want :)

if you want a sound that bears little resemblance to a real cymbal swell.

Think - what is a cymbal swell? What is the drummer actually doing?
Generally, she is hitting at least one cymbal quickly, usually with the shank (shaft) of the drumstick rather than the tip, starting softly and gradually (or quickly) hitting harder.
The natural resonance of the cymbal takes over, blurring the individual hits into a rising whoosh.

So, you need: some cymbal samples, preferably velocity layered, and some time spent in a midi editor / pianoroll.

PS: you can somewhat mimic the sound of an edge-hit cymbal (using a flat-out crashed one or sometimes a tip-hit ride) by softening its attack, using amplitude modulation and/or compression.
KVRist
 
37 posts since 26 Oct, 2008, from Finland

Postby orbik; Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:30 am

stk wrote:Think - what is a cymbal swell? What is the drummer actually doing?
Generally, she is hitting at least one cymbal quickly, usually with the shank (shaft) of the drumstick rather than the tip, starting softly and gradually (or quickly) hitting harder.
The natural resonance of the cymbal takes over, blurring the individual hits into a rising whoosh.

So, you need: some cymbal samples, preferably velocity layered, and some time spent in a midi editor / pianoroll.

...if you want an really artificial sounding emulation of the real thing.

I don't think you can get realistic results without an actual recording of a cymbal swell. Many drum sample libraries include these at least for the crashes. Of course then you'll have little control over the length and other dynamics.

Drum samplers work reasonably well for well separated hits, but lose realism when multiple hits of the same object sound at once. It's because the sound of these instruments - especially cymbals - don't behave linearly, as is assumed when mixing multiple samples, but energy from lower modes of vibration is transferred to upper ones with increasing amplitude (inter-resonance of overtones). E.g. a cymbal hit twice with a soft mallet sounds brighter than the sounds of two single hits combined. In a swell the energy from lots of relatively soft impacts is accumulated and the higher tones excite indirectly in a smooth fashion.
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KVRAF
 
1715 posts since 19 May, 2006, from Nomadic (Chicago and San Francisco mostly)
    

Postby xybre; Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:01 am

stk wrote:
xybre wrote:Dude, just reverse a regular cymbal, and then stretch it to the length you want :)

if you want a sound that bears little resemblance to a real cymbal swell.

Each to their own man. I know what the swell consists of, I've played acoustic drums and been in bands with pro drummers, but for most purposes a reverse crash is completely sufficient.

I agree with Orbik, if you need a realistic swell then you need to record that live or use a sample someone else already has done. Or get xoxos to make something for you :D
noise and beats: Negutyv Xeiro
gearlust: Wadorf Blofeld, Dave Smith MoPho, Roland JP-8000, Access Virus A, Korg Radias
machinecode by: u-he, Tone2, Stillwell, de la Mancha, Ugo, Camel, Togu, et al
KVRAF
 
5550 posts since 4 May, 2007, from Mars Colony

Postby A.M. Gold; Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:31 am

stk wrote:
xybre wrote:Dude, just reverse a regular cymbal, and then stretch it to the length you want :)

if you want a sound that bears little resemblance to a real cymbal swell.



I agree, that's not a cymbal swell, it's a backwards decay of a cymbal hit, which is something else entirely. Another thing to consider is that cymbal swells are often done with mallets, not sticks.
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stk
KVRAF
 
2201 posts since 6 May, 2003, from au
 

Postby stk; Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:46 pm

orbik wrote:
stk wrote:Think - what is a cymbal swell? What is the drummer actually doing?
Generally, she is hitting at least one cymbal quickly, usually with the shank (shaft) of the drumstick rather than the tip, starting softly and gradually (or quickly) hitting harder.
The natural resonance of the cymbal takes over, blurring the individual hits into a rising whoosh.

So, you need: some cymbal samples, preferably velocity layered, and some time spent in a midi editor / pianoroll.

...if you want an really artificial sounding emulation of the real thing


:clap:

Artificiality in this case depends on your skills at midi programming :tu:
Nothing beats the real thing, but many people don't have acess to that.
KVRist
 
37 posts since 26 Oct, 2008, from Finland

Postby orbik; Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:15 pm

stk wrote:Artificiality in this case depends on your skills at midi programming :tu:
Nothing beats the real thing, but many people don't have acess to that.

How is it about midi programming if the proper response simply can't be achieved by mixing individual hits? unless you consider a theoretical pov that any sound can be constructed from another via convolution, which can in theory be implemented with a dense series of midi events.

edit: typo

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