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Waves MaxxBass: freeware equivalent?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

KVRian
 
585 posts since 9 Jul, 2004

Postby tommy_d; Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:36 am

aciddose wrote:no, personal use is not technically legal
It isn't? Ah. Interesting!
aciddose wrote:good luck to waves in trying to catch you though
I s'pose if one never told anyone else about it, never played anything processed through it to anyone else (...used it in a darkened room 50 miles from any other human being etc.) then it's kind of a moot point - the plugin equivalent of "if a tree falls in a forest and there's no-one around..." :D
aciddose wrote:if you couldn't create a clone the patent wouldn't be valid. might be a good test :hihi:
Well, absolutely! I mean, we'd be doing Waves a favour, right?

(Note to mods/Waves lawyers: Joke! Just kidding! Nothing to see here, move along now...)
KVRian
 
977 posts since 3 Jul, 2009

Postby sonicpowa; Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:39 pm

The effect of MaxxBass should be easy to reproduce. You'll need a plugin with a lot of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics and LP filter mixed with the original sound. Harmonics across the frequency range are filtered out at the right frequency and slope.
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KVRAF
 
8950 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada
 

Postby aciddose; Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:17 pm

it's entirely possible there is prior-art for this type of thing. although it might come down to the very specific implementation in "maxxbass". i did a series of bass expander plugins back in 2000 using several methods that might be related. in some cases i don't actually remember how they worked exactly.

i think the best thing you could do is just try to accomplish your goals without worrying about what someone else has done. if a lawyer shows up demanding you cease distribution, do as they ask.

the facts are 99% of software commercial or not is violating a patent of some kind. 99% is probably way too small a number actually.

you're better off taking a chance than not producing anything at all. patents work great in that regard hm?

these sorts of patents are unenforceable anyway. since it's not legal to reverse engineer your binaries, where do they get the evidence that you used the methods they're claiming they hold a patent on?

it all comes down to mafia-like tactics. i think you'll find in most cases as has already been said in this thread, the patents are for two purposes. 1) large scale licensing 2) defense.
KVRian
 
585 posts since 9 Jul, 2004

Postby tommy_d; Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:31 pm

sonicpowa wrote:The effect of MaxxBass should be easy to reproduce
You'd think so, wouldn't you? I thought so, too :shrug: But the consensus is that I was wrong - that it's not easy at all.
sonicpowa wrote:You'll need a plugin with a lot of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics and LP filter mixed with the original sound. Harmonics across the frequency range are filtered out at the right frequency and slope.
Well, I refer you to this document; it's quite interesting reading...
KVRian
 
585 posts since 9 Jul, 2004

Postby tommy_d; Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:13 pm

MaxxBass®, MaxxTreble™, MaxxStereo™...

Whither MaxxTalent, I wonder?

[dream sequence]
"MaxxTalent Function

MaxxTalent™ is a patented psycho-cultural-acoustic process that enhances the perceived compositional & performance abilities of recorded musicians.

How MaxxTalent Works

Our unique algorithm analyses the melodic, harmonic & rhythmic sophistication of the composition; the cultural relevance of the lyrical content (where present); and the technical expertise of the vocalist(s)/instrumentalist(s). It then enhances each of these factors so as to enrich the user experience. Unlike traditional enhancement technologies (e.g. Antares Auto-Tune), MaxxPlayer does not actually alter recorded material in any way. It just cons you into thinking that everyone's a bit better than they actually are..."
[/dream sequence]
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KVRAF
 
19377 posts since 13 Feb, 2003, from Vancouver, Canada
 

Postby bduffy; Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:20 pm

tommy_d wrote:
sonicpowa wrote:The effect of MaxxBass should be easy to reproduce
You'd think so, wouldn't you? I thought so, too :shrug: But the consensus is that I was wrong - that it's not easy at all.
sonicpowa wrote:You'll need a plugin with a lot of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics and LP filter mixed with the original sound. Harmonics across the frequency range are filtered out at the right frequency and slope.
Well, I refer you to this document; it's quite interesting reading...

Theoretically, it should be easy enough to rig up something like that schematic in the MaxxBass pdf. But I'd like to see Joe-Schmoe-home-DAW-user get it right! :P

For the record, I did some A/B-ing with latest BBE HR8, and I would hazard to say it's just as good as RBass, plus you get your higher frequency enhancer too. But again, far from free...
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KVRAF
 
3039 posts since 25 Jun, 2004
 

Postby highkoo; Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:28 pm

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KVRAF
 
8950 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada
 

Postby aciddose; Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:05 pm

since it's just a relatively simple filter/env follower/gain stage configuration it should be easy to build using existing plugins.

for example i've done this thousands of times: parallel compressor and dry signal, highpass filter dry signal, lowpass filter compressor, mix result.

that's essentially the same thing as the compressor introduces the correct harmonics, but it also levels out the signal within a certain range. (output remains dry until bass level is between -20 and +20, where it's then compressed to 0 constantly and harmonics are stronger at higher levels.)

this is exactly how the plugins i did around 99/2000 worked, i think... except the logic for the compression was a bit strange. i'm actually amazed that it ever worked. i also did a delay line that could be read forwards and backwards at the same time which is a fairly well known effect these days.

funny thing is you can be almost certain these were all patented between 1990-2000. some of them have already run out.

of course the techniques are obvious and they've been done for decades before the patents were ever filed in modular synthesizers and just in general use of effects world-wide by professionals and amatures alike. not that the patent office ever cared about that, though.
KVRian
 
977 posts since 3 Jul, 2009

Postby sonicpowa; Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:20 am

tommy_d wrote:Well, I refer you to this document; it's quite interesting reading...

Hmm.. interesting indeed.. too complex.. :D
KVRian
 
977 posts since 3 Jul, 2009

Postby sonicpowa; Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:36 am

But what is the purpose of MaxxBass plugin anyway?
Well I know the consept is useful for consumer electronics, but for musicians? I don't get it because we can mix and match the bass frequences.

It enhances the bass but when you filter out the fundamental frequency it's not that great. But if it could recreate that low bass feeling in full effect it would be awesome.
So as long as the low bass is there we can create that enhanced part with other plugins and it's about the same effect.
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KVRAF
 
19377 posts since 13 Feb, 2003, from Vancouver, Canada
 

Postby bduffy; Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:07 am

sonicpowa wrote:But what is the purpose of MaxxBass plugin anyway?
Well I know the consept is useful for consumer electronics, but for musicians? I don't get it because we can mix and match the bass frequences.

It enhances the bass but when you filter out the fundamental frequency it's not that great. But if it could recreate that low bass feeling in full effect it would be awesome.
So as long as the low bass is there we can create that enhanced part with other plugins and it's about the same effect.

I used it yesterday to get a track's low-tuned bass to stand out a bit more on an iPhone app. I knew the mix was destined for a tiny speaker, and I was able to get the results I needed quickly and effectively. Personally, I can't imagine dicking around with a bunch of sidechains, saturation plugins and filters when I could use a professionally designed product like this, but I'm sure one could get similar effects, if capable and willing.

And I wouldn't expect MaxxBass harmonics to sound that hot on their own, they're intended for speakers that can't produce the fundamental. MaxxBass usually sounds muddy on my nearfields.
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KVRian
 
977 posts since 3 Jul, 2009

Postby sonicpowa; Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:23 am

^^^ Yea but something like WOK BassPlus is similar and easy to use, it's free and without ilok.
And if one creates something more complex with send effects then it's needed to set up one time only (using template).
KVRian
 
585 posts since 9 Jul, 2004

Postby tommy_d; Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:11 am

sonicpowa wrote:^^^ Yea but something like WOK BassPlus is similar
"similar": maybe :) "the same": definitely not :(

(At least not IMO; see my post above).
sonicpowa wrote:and easy to use, it's free and without ilok.
Yes, yes and yes; all good points! But if it doesn't produce the same results then, well, so what? (No offence - I'm not trying to be rude; just sayin'...)
sonicpowa wrote:And if one creates something more complex with send effects then it's needed to set up one time only (using template).
Quite so.
KVRian
 
585 posts since 9 Jul, 2004

Postby tommy_d; Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:18 am

kbaccki wrote:Would be interested in hearing some A/B between MB and LFP... but alas, you don't have MB! :P
...But I do have friends, some of whom have Waves plugs, one whom - it seems - has MB...
kbaccki wrote:Hope you can get acceptable results out of your existing tools
Oh, certainly! Acceptable to me, anyway... :D
kbaccki wrote:[...] and use that money to buy your mom a nice gift for the holidays
:lol: She put you up to this, right?
KVRAF
 
1547 posts since 13 Oct, 2002

Postby Breeze; Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:44 am

bduffy wrote:
sonicpowa wrote:But what is the purpose of MaxxBass plugin anyway?
Well I know the consept is useful for consumer electronics, but for musicians? I don't get it because we can mix and match the bass frequences.

It enhances the bass but when you filter out the fundamental frequency it's not that great. But if it could recreate that low bass feeling in full effect it would be awesome...

I used it yesterday to get a track's low-tuned bass to stand out a bit more on an iPhone app. I knew the mix was destined for a tiny speaker, and I was able to get the results I needed quickly and effectively. Personally, I can't imagine dicking around with a bunch of sidechains, saturation plugins and filters when I could use a professionally designed product like this, but I'm sure one could get similar effects, if capable and willing.

And I wouldn't expect MaxxBass harmonics to sound that hot on their own, they're intended for speakers that can't produce the fundamental. MaxxBass usually sounds muddy on my nearfields.

Exactly. The only time I used MaxxBass on a commercial release was for a game for the Sony PSP. End even there I had to be careful balancing the result coming out of the PSP's tiny speakers vs listening on decent quality headphones. It worked out very well.

I don't see any reason to use MaxxBass for material destined for full-range systems. Usually the only reason a hardware manufacturer would integrate MaxxBass technology into a speaker system is because the low end driver is incapable of producing healthy frequencies under 70-80 Hz. So it would be used to palliate a hardware limitation. Outside of that, its up to the user to get a better sound system.

My use of low-end synth or extension plugins these days is for special effects work. They can really help good but anemic front line effects find their "oomph" ;)

BTW, if you're doing your own mastering and unless you have excellent full-range speakers and a properly tuned room, here's a piece of hard-learned advice. Always check your mix with a spectrum analyzer in line with your DAW output and insert a HQ steep high-pass filter right before it set to it's lowest possible frequency. Then sweep upwards until you start hearing its effect in your speakers. Then back off until you just don't hear a difference and master that. Check the spectrum analyzer to observe what effects your filter is having and note what you can't hear. Low end content you can't hear can destroy your mix; this way you have better chance of producing a mix that's balanced on any system. Out-of-control bass peaks is the biggest danger in using these low Fq extender plugins.

aciddose wrote:it's entirely possible there is prior-art for this type of thing. although it might come down to the very specific implementation in "maxxbass". i did a series of bass expander plugins back in 2000 using several methods that might be related. in some cases i don't actually remember how they worked exactly.

There is "prior art" in the form of research that was done on the perception of missing fundamentals from upper harmonics by many people from the 1800's on (check this link under Psychological Background for Modeling Pitch and Harmony). There's more info and links on the Missing Fundamental WIKI page. Waves basically packaged the theory into a working system and patented it. If someone developed an alternate way of doing the same thing, it could bypass Waves' patent and be eligible for a patent as well. After all, you can't patent a natural phenomena.
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