So to sum up this thread and the few contributions I've read by the januncivil person above, classical musicians are better, and know everything, and electronic music doesn't have any special requirements of its own. Nothing is new, to someone who has been taking violin lessons since childhood. Nobody can tell a classical musician anything. There is nothing in the rhythms of electronic music, and by implication in polyrhythmic structures, that wasn't done by great classical composers. The answers to these questions of mine, although rhetorical, is 'yes, now understand vee are superior'. Classical musicians are superior authorities on electronic and computer music and the inheritors of classical Greek and Roman culture. We engineers and synth musicians are a lower species and should be eradicated by a form of eugenics...

OK. HAHAHAHA. But to me it's ironic you have to TELL people in writing about how superior you allegedly are. You talk about famous bands as if you're an authority because you know a few scales. But I've never heard of you. You have to use the written word to express your 'music'. There is no jancivil, pioneer of digital/electronic music creation, using wizardry of technical skill over music theory. Nobody has heard of you lot. That is where your facade of fake superiority shatters. You are nobody and your words are worthless.

I have no wish to argue and I realise arguing and vying for 'superiority' on a forum is probably how you arrogant types make up for your failure in classical music. So I'll leave you to troll yourself. Have fun with your life on KVR.

As a classically trained musician, I'd like to go on record as NOT subscribing to the philosophy as summarized above.

[quote="clocklogic"]So to sum up this thread and the few contributions I've read by the januncivil..."


So, your response is to be even more uncivil, and paint a broad, unflattering, and grossly incorrect image about a group of people who aren't participating in this discussion and thus can't defend themselves?

And as far as your point about things "already have been done in classical"; the truth is that, yes, they have. But not in the same stylistic way--which is why electronic is a different genre to begin with.

The bricks and mortar of music are the same in all genres; the way are used, however, will be slightly different or much more different depending upon the relationship of one genre to another. So when someone says to study classical music: 1) you will come across every element you need, but with stylistic differences; 2)they are suggesting you study a form of music that has a strong history of pedagogical use; 3) they are suggesting you study a form of music that has a solid, logical, systematic progression in the way material is presented to aid learning; 4) gives you a broad understanding of the way musical genres evolve over time; 5) the ability to understand and utilize differences in genre.

No one is (or should be suggesting) that classical is the only thing you should study or participate in. They are suggesting you show a little humility, cut the arrogance and the mouthing, and be willing to learn from other people who might just actually (and probably do) know more than you.

1. You make incorrect assumption that you know what I know and what I don't know.
2. As I see from your comments you agree that classical music won't teach you how to tune kick drum to the sound of the track. Even more you don't even clearly understand what I'm talking about, as you have never experienced it. If you have ever tried tuning kick drum by ear, you would understood.


The only arrogance I've heard was from people, who were saying that classical music is an ultimate form of musical art.

And by the way no one of those who are saying that the study of classical music would help you to do electronic dance music has posted a decent house track. I did post one. What we are talking about?

That's very much a matter of opinion.

Loki, if you want to hear arrogance from someone not on the classical "side" (...eh ...), then check out the post I was responding to. And out of curiosity, why only quote the least interesting portion of my post, which was directed specifically at the person I quoted? And I don't recall anyone saying that classical music is an ultimate form of musical art (although I will certainly agree with you that certain individuals who were arguing in favor of the ...classical side... could certainly stand to check their tone and arrogance as well).

As for your second paragraph, no one needs to specifically post a "decent house track." There are classically-trained people all throughout the music industry working in many different genres of music; I hardly think anyone at this forum has to prove that classical training has a very large degree of applications, and I don't think someone has to go out of their way to compose in every imaginable style of music in order to prove the point. The point of classical training (for most people) is to gain a solid foundation that can then be used in any musical style, not just to try for a life in classical music; I think that's actually true of the vast majority of musicians who go to study. This is one of the reasons why classical training has such a strong emphasis on analysis (and performance geared toward mastery of each of the following elements); you learn to view musical style objectively. What is objectively there in the music (pitch, rhythm, timbre, dynamics, articulation, meter, tempo, register, cadence, density, texture)? How are those elements being used? The answer to those questions define genre and style. Knowing how to analyze in that way, a trained musician will be able to listen/analyze a piece of music, understand its stylistic traits, and then be able to produce music in that style by writing within those traits.

That said, rather than there just being a lot of hot air being blown around by everyone in this thread, why not post a track you'd like everyone to try to emulate? I may not have time to do so myself, but if I can, I'll offer an analysis of the work as well as compose in that style of music to demonstrate the type of approach I mentioned in my previous paragraph. Perhaps others might be willing to do the same? Not to prove any type of superiority, but simply to demonstrate how a certain level of formal training can be of benefit for working in diverse styles of music. It would certainly benefit more people than all the word games going on.

just got back from lessons, starting production NOW!

I'm actually going to remix a "classical" piece to fit a "dance" genre

ok, NOW!

Love the enthusiasm! Can't wait to see what you come up with.

I'll try to fulfill my own suggestion as well. I've never actually attempted a dance track, so I'll really try to squeeze this into my schedule. If someone would like to link a track that they'd like to have analyzed and then used as a model for a new work, I'll try to give it a go.

well since ya asked

Here's a couple from back in November. They all had the EXACT same process. Melody first (came up with 2-3 segments), then fit chord progressions to them (yielding 2-3 form chunks, as in verse-chorus-bridge organization). then copy-paste ad nauseum, making subtle layer changes each iteration.

http://soundcloud.com/shankfiddle/11-07-peer-pressure-prion
http://soundcloud.com/shankfiddle/11-10-dreary-overcast-days
http://soundcloud.com/shankfiddle/11-11-trinumeral-trance

I PERSONALLY think these are simplistic and one-dimensional (legos as opposed to architecture), soo much copy-paste, I get bored listening to these, but hey, it's a model. Mebbe different melodies, more form chunks?

I'm trying to make today's new piece a lot "more musical" so it might take a little longer than a matter of hours, my hard and fast deadline is Monday 4:20pm eastern standard time.

That's known as a straw man argument. It's baseless, it surely can't be based on what I have said. It's clear enough you don't even vaguely understand what I have said but it upset you so you just had to share.

FOR THE RECORD:

I do not think classical musicians are superior. I do not identify myself as a classical musician. I have found in my experience, which isn't trivial, that most of these classical musicians are slaves to the page, to notation. People that don't have musical ideas but regurgitate them like trained seals, as skilled mechanics. There are truly exceptional musicians among them, however, that obtain a deep understanding of what they play; for instance a soloist pretty much had to have more on the ball than someone whose job is going to be playing parts they have played since they were chidren.

Like most things, mediocrity and laziness rule ok.

OTOH, "electronic music" is a wide, deep field of music. However, most people that use the term at KVR mean 'EDM', which to me is mostly a lot of infantile, pathetic rubbish. There will be exceptions, like anything else.

But as revealed to me in music theory board here, most of its proponents are ignorant.

(edited for [punctuation and] TYPOS)
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:22 am; edited 2 times in total

There is one insurmountable problem there: no one has said that. I for one don't believe that. At all. Not even close.

OTOH your arrogance (as revealed in your actual point, which you've already walked back some*), is simply astonishing.

(*: You can do just as well never playing any insrrument/you can get better at music from playing an instrument)

Your argument, Loki, is with yourself. It's anti-growth, anti-knowledge, and at the center of it is anti-active.

You're only cheating yourself.

I feel it needs to be countered strongly because we have a tendency to find what we want to convince ourselves we're right... you're RIGHT to do less, to pretend that doing nothing is every bit as good as doing as much as possible.

no, kids, don't listen to that guy, he's talking shit to prop himself up.

skankfiddle has posted something quite good. Your piece, loki fuego is mediocrity personified. IMO,
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total

And the rest are arrogant egotistical bass players. What happened to the OP and his question?