I understand that when playing the blues scale over a chord progression it should be in relation to the tonic chord's key.

eg. C blues scale over C7,F7,G7 (I,IV,V,)

And that some people think of there as being one blues scale:
the minor blues scale combined with the minor blues scale, a minor third below it.

eg. The C and A minor blues scale

So in a major setting, the C and A blues scales can be played over the I,IV, and V in C major.

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I was wondering if you could involve the other scale degrees as well,
the ii, iii, vi, and vii o ?

In the blues chord progressions that I see, like the 12 bar bluess, only the I,IV, and V are used.

Now I'm in no way an expert on blues, but somehow I have the gut feeling that it wouldn't really sound like blues anymore then.

Firstly though it is often confused, the minor pentatonic scale is not the blues scale though they are closely related. For the most part blues players mix and match scales.

If the blues is in a major then one can play the mixolydian scale. Ala BB King as a prime example. If it is a minor blues song most opt for the dorian scale. All that changes during the turn around. During the turnaround one does play a scale appropriate to the chord form.

The standard blues progresson in C
|:C7|F7|C7|C| >All from the C mixolydian scale
|C7|F7|C7|C| > Again from the C mixolydian scale
Now for the turn around
|G7 from the G mixolydian scale | F7 from the F mixolydian scale
]C7|C7:| from the C mixolydian scale.

Now you can and people often do mix scale forms. When you are playing over a Dominant 7 chord you can play a C minor Pentatonic, It has a little harshness to it so... Blues players also will play off both the natural and minor third in a lick.

There is also the C major pentatonic scale, Which is identical to the A minor pentatonic scale. This is often referred to as the "Country Blues" scale. When playing over a C chord you can play an a minor pentatonic. From which you get ACDEGA or CDEGAC notice how you get that nice major chord in that scale.

Once again you can mix and match scales to a degree. You can superimpose the C major Pentatonic over the mixolydian and or the minor pentatonic. But you don't want to crowd things up too much. CDEbEFF#GABbC is what happens when you take the minor blues scale and try to overlaop it wth the A minor blues scale. With the exception of minor/major third happenings generally you want to separate your licks, First play a pentatonic idea and then follow with a mixolydian one.., Eric Clapton does this seemlessly. Same with Buddy Guy and countless others. They start a phrase with one scale form in mind and they end with another.

Those that try to remain as pure to the blues scale as possible are Billy Gibbons of ZZTop and George Th0rohgood.

Honestly think less, play more and... pick up your share of stock blues licks. There you'll find the truth. The truth being what works for you and what works for others. Scales (same with chords) out of context have no context. In playing musical ideas based on the forms in a song. You may find that while yes it's important to know these things that how the notes are accentuated make all the difference.

Mike - I find the idea of playing C myxolyian over F7 a little strange.

Would you seriously play E and not Eb over F7 (F A C Eb)? I would maybe play that E as a leading note/passing tone in a run in to the root but would play Eb as a held tone. In my experience, if a player is going for inside tones rather than a pure pentatonic/bluescale sort of thing they would follow the changes and play F myxolydian over F7.

mike: Man you are awesome, great to have you around and read your thoughts. Really inspiring.

I got my information from:
[ http://www.opus28.co.uk/bluesbasics.pdf ] (www.opus28.co.uk/bluesbasics.pdf)

On the 3rd page it states that:
"we tend to apply the relevant blues scales of the key in which we're playing"

"So C (minor) and A (minor) blues scales can be used over all the chords in a basic major blues - C7, F7 and G7"


I was just wondering if you could use the other chords as well ?

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It's a means of creating tension via dissonance. With that tension you have something to "release to" Which would be returning back to the root. If you simply "complied" (which is what I do on many occasions) playing an F mixolydian over an F7 you don't get that tension/dissonance so there isn't any resolution because it's all fairly connosant if you don't. As well you don't "have to play E over an F7 chord there are still plenty of notes to draw out of the scale without hitting it. As well remember you can roll between the minor and the major 3rd Which means you don't have to gravitate to it if you don't want to.

I too struggled with the concept myself. But after transcribing a wide assortment of blues standards and tutelage from local blues greats I finally accepted the concept.

Sure there are times when you don't want to play like this. Predominantly when you are trying to superimpose a bass line to support the chords, which is of course based on the chords themselves.

But... if you listen to Chuck Berry's Johnny B Goode He mixes pentatonics with the mixolidian scale and has no problem hitting E natural over the Eb7 chord but he does it so quickly most folks don't blink or think about it.

Mike

Sure, all kinds of "blues" progressions in common use in jazz involving the IV7-ii7-V7-I turnaroud or other substitutions (e.g., bIII7, ii7, bII7, I7). They just sound progressively more jazzy and less bluesy and the chords get more exotic. However, the minor blues of the key will usually still sound pretty good over all these more sophisticated progressions as long as they have their root in a 12-bar form.

For an extreme example, check out Goodbye Pork Pie Hat by Charles Mingus, which is still technically a "blues" progression in some sense even though it uses tons of chords from outside the key. Minor blues still sounds hip over all of it.

Jazzier versions of the blues often involve chord substitutions. For example if you have a bar of G7 you could break that up into a bar with Dmi7 for the first two beats followed by two beats of G7. This is just a ii/V progression sustituted for the V chord and you can play G myxolydian over it just as if it was a bar of G7 if you want to but the movement in the harmony makes it a little more interesting.

If you want busier harmony like in the example of Goodbye Porkpie Hat you can use sustitutions like |iii/vi|ii/V| or the more chromatic |iii/biii|ii/V| or |iii/biii|ii/bII7| and they can be altered all over the place as in the version Joni Mitchell sings.

If you look at some of Charlie Parker's blues changes the tune will start with Gma7 and have two and more chords in many bars - it complies with the basic outline of the 12 bar stucture but it tranformed to such a degree that you might not even recognise it. Mood-wise, such instumental tunes can seem to bop along quite happily - they seem a long way from the tone of lamentation you hear in more traditional blues.

To my ears, experience and knowledge, You get to far beyond the blues with changes and it'd no longer the blues. Jazz, Rock, and R@B all do this.

As for standard blues progessions it's not all 12 bar and there are plenty of variations for the 12 bar blues without leaving the blues to far behind. I can think of about 70 variations on the basic 8,12 and 16 bar blues progressions. As well there are a lot of bluesmen who will simply work on a "vamp" Where the chord doesn't chage during the entire song or just once in 16 bars then goes back.

That being said what differentiates one blues tune from another has mostly to do with "feel" and personality.

Also a word about keys.
Piano lessons usually use C as the example key. And many keyboard players will gravitate to C. Guitarists on the other hand usually learn E and A. A is considered the "Royal" key of the blues for electric guitarists. *Unless they tune down a half step like Stevie Ray Vaughn or Jimi Hendrix. The tune down is the exception not the rule. When they do tune down they learn it all in Eb or Ab. If a guitarist tunes down then it's tuned down on every song and you'll have to accomodate for this with your playing. Most bluesmen don't tune down a half step. When musicians get together to jam, they need to pick a key that works well for all of them. Generally it's G. Which is why a great deal of rhythm and blues from the 30's 40's and 50's is in G.

Not all singers have a moveable "Doe" They have a familiar key they like to work with and will insist that a song be played in a particular key that it may not have been written in. If you are used to playing a song in a particular key You'll have to adapt for the singer.

On the otherhand with jazz guys they want to know if you can cut the mustard. They will call out tunes in unfamiliar keys just to test you. I'm the exception to the rule because I do practice scales, licks, and progressions in all 12 keys though I can't remember ever performing something in F# or C#.

So it's a good idea to get comfortable playing in different keys.
These are generalizations below don't take them too seriously.

Bb and Eb are "the romantic keys" favored by jazzer's more then blues players.
C and F are the folk and country keys
E and A are the blues guitar keys.
G is the "agreement" key

I find it somewhat odd myself. Which means I wouldn't tend to think 'Mixolydian on C is just the thing for this F7 here'.

But who knows... you're happening in the mixolydian thing, should you worry about E agin that Eb? Not sure. I wouldn't advise 'go do this' without showing it frankly.

Blues is a feeling. I don't know about any great blues player that goes around thinking about the theory of it. If you're thinking. I mean in your conscious mind, you're not feeling. your intuition is occluded. The thing to do is jam with people and jam some more and find out what happens, experience it.

I think that if you're in a 12-bar type of blues, these lower case kinda chords really are going to take you into a weak area unless you want to come off jazzbo, & until you have a grip on jazz concepts of harmony, which is another plane of existence musically.

As Jopy says, you can stick to straight-up blues note choices and come up smelling pretty good over all of that cuter stuff, if you got a good blues feel.

The idea of a 'blues scale' is some bullshit though. You got a pentatonic thing and some other 'blue' notes for expression. b5, you know. They are there because they hurt better. It's not science and it's not theoretical, it's a known thing on the planet, it's modeled for you. Get your ear around it, get your hand behind that, period.
If all you can manage is running scales comparing them to the chord change you're lying and everybody knows it.

It's not something to read about like that's something. Information is not knowledge.

@jancivil
I've been playing over the JA playalongs a lot of late - especially the Blues in 12 keys and the blues tunes on the Maiden Voyage volume. These are definitely pretty jazzy in flavour with swing feels mostly and walking bass lines and more advanced harmony than the sort of thing Mike was talking about. I can play over these while following the chord chart - or trying to - but I quite often just play. I can be distracted by something else - eg watching TV or mind just off in the clouds - and the phrases that tumble out are coming straight from what I hear rather than any real calculation. If I watch what I'm doing I find myself following the basic changes almost unconsciously. What I hear has been influenced by playing the changes - I would have played a lot more on pentatonic/bluescale things in the past but on these backings that blues scale sound seems wrong to me these days. On sax I play more notes and play more chromatically because everything falls so easily to hand.

On guitar and percussive instruments like the piano we all tend to play lots of notes but on sustaining instruments - eg horns and bowed strings - you can play fewer notes. Holding a note with a beautiful tone like Miles Davis does in some of his solos can say more than all the busy phrases in the world.

Okay lets take a standard "jazz/blues" song.

Cry Me A River



Take a look at measure 4
EbM7 - Dm7G7
On the G7 Chord the notes are F# and G
Now you can think of this as being derived from the C blues scale CEbFF#GBb
Or you can think of it as a nieghboring tone but there it is. The F# does not belong to the Dm7 chord

Look at the next measure Gm7-C7#5
What do you see? C-C#-C-C#
Derived from the G Blues scale GBbCC#DF

Measure 6 with an F9 the lick is derived from Cminor blues scale and fits perfectly but look at the next measure

Now take a look at measure 7 where we have an Fm7 Chord
The classic blues lick derived from the Cminor scale
F# F Eb F Eb C Eb Eb < This is where he sings "I cried a river over you"

In a pure harmonic sense that F# has no business showing up above the Fm7 chord. What it does is add tension via contrast. As do other parts of the song where the melody doesn't obide by standard rules.


Well when standard rules don't apply there are plenty of exceptions waiting in the wings. As I've stated earlier I too struggled with this type of stuff when jamming to backing tracks because it didn't "feel" right. It's simply that I wasn't comfortable with the concept. I had to work out a lot of standards to get thru it and apply that type of phrasiology to my own playing. Getting away from "Harmonic modal" where you fit the melody to match the chord and back to "selective tonal" where you stay in the key/scale regardless of the changes so you can create "tension and release" moments.

Now for a more "Straight Blues Scale: that doesn't change when the chords do
(with the exception of the V7 chord)check out Nat Adderley's (Cannonball was is brother but Nat wrote it) Work Song. It stays in C blues scale throughout.
Last edited by tapper mike on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

As for one that stays' Strict, Check out "Bag's Groove" Milt Jackson/ Modern Jazz Quartet. The melody comes strictly from the F minor pentatonic scale.

Guitarist Larry Coryell tells the tale of when he was a cocky youngster in NYC ca. the days when Hendrix was getting a big rep in town. LC figured he has all this knowledge and mad chops so he comes into a jam like he's going to cut Hendrix. He says Hendrix come out with one big note BAAWAAAAAAOOOOOOOAAAAAAOOOOWWWWWWW and blew all his shit away.

I switched to guitar from drums to play electric blues. A little later I got into modal playing. This sort of cool period, Miles, got away from 'tea for two' changes, 'rhythm changes' in favor of something more static, where you can relax and enjoy the tones and how they feel against the ground. I should eschew a real general remark about how well a minor pentatonic works in particular, it's all about some context.

as far as eg., a ^7 agin a b7, and a 'wrong note' idea, it depends on how crafty, how intelligent one gets to be, out of experience of course.

I never had anything to say as a player, really, when the harmonic plot thickens. I can write lines, I can imagine lines, I know what's happening but the axe in my hands isn't interested in it. So where this gets to be about more of that action I have to defer to Mike. That said, I don't think I would so much lean on that E on an F7 in simple blues. It might be interesting, it might be a mistake you craft into something compelling or not, sink or swim, it could be a stinker. So I'm agnostic there.

as far as 'BB King went for mixolydian' if the feel was major, I'm going to remain agnostic here too. The more pertinent thing IMO is to say he matched major with major and the seventh remained flat. You don't hear scales so much in that music.