Tastes are different. However, what I like about the Vintage D is its powerful bass. You can nearly hear the vibrating strings. Pianoteq 3 is a bit weak compared to the Vintage D. And the higher octaves are to bell-shaped. For me, it sounds like a (very good) attempt to simulate a piano sound with FM synthesis.

Exactly this happened at a professional pianist's forum. Somebody posted a cover version with Pianoteq and the listeners asked about the strange sound. BUT, it was Pianoteq 2.0, so ...

I was poking some gentle fun at precisely this example (I remember you quoting it in an older PT bah thread). I'm sure there are plenty of examples to the contrary. Besides, you never know how the recording was mixed. You can make a real piano sound funny pretty easily if you don't record and mix it right.

It's just that this amusing give-and-take (my piano sounds realer (sic!) than yours) isn't really helping anyone. I've fooled "professional" pianists with PT. What does that prove?

Some of the tech insights can be helpful, and it helps if people know what do listen for, but I think we're a little beyond that here. We all play the piano, we all know what a "real" piano sounds like, but we have different tastes. Saying "the sound is simply superior" is just being deliberately rancorous.

I wouldn't say that "my" piano sounds better, but I seriously think that the physical modeling technique still has its weak points. Sampled pianos are not perfect as well, of course, but when you're looking for a realistic sound, sampled pianos are the better choice because a listener can't judge the playability and, in most cases, he isn't interested in physically correct behavior of phase cancellation. The top league of sampled pianos still produce a more pleasant sound.
Last edited by opus_diaboli on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total

Actually, as mentioned, there are other libraries that do this, including Alicia's Keys and the Garritan Steinway.

HOWEVER, they aren't as realistic as the Pianoteq resonance. I own Galaxy D, though I haven't played it for a while, but I don't remember it being any better either.

I think it's important also for people to understand that resonance is dynamic in a real piano and with Pianoteq. SOME libraries "fake" this resonance by having some standard resonance sounds that play the entire time, but they are not realistic because they aren't based on the exact notes depressed.

It's important when checking for true sympathetic resonance, that you listen carefully when performing the test. Hold down different combinations of notes with your left hand until they ring out, or softly enough that they don't make a sound. Then strike quick note combinations in your right hand.

Now, if done right, the resonance will completely change depending on which notes are in your left hand, and they will also sound different depending on the notes in your right hand as they blend and interact differently with the depressed notes below. In other words, it's not just a matter of having individual string resonances sampled and played when that note is down. It's the way that the notes react to each other. The harmonics are very complex.

At this time, there is NO sampled piano that I've played(which is most of them at one time or another, and I always check for this), that gets as close to this as Pianoteq. They do go in the right direction, but Pianoteq still goes further than others.

Brent

koolkeys,

You are right. But no average music consumer is interested in subtleties like that. The overall sound is much more important. A sampled piano sounds like a real piano because it's a real piano that has been sampled.

Maybe I should check out Pianoteq 4 ...

It's all subjective - and it is good to have variety.

Tastes do differ, and I'm not a big fan of the modeled pianos. They sound ok in a mix with other instruments, but fail when forced to standalone.

The market is flooded with stuff at the moment. My go to's have been Piano in Blue, Vintaudio's 1908 Clinton, and a vst simply called "The Piano" sometimes referred to as a Lennon piano.

Shope around- you're bound to find something that speaks to you.
Last edited by phlendo on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total

I agree, that no consumer necessarily cares. I've actually written articles about this on the blog at ProRec, in case you are curious(this post is part of a series of posts): http://www.prorec.com/2012/03/your-audience-isnt-listening/

HOWEVER, this is still important in a conversation about what sounds more "real".

As a piano player of over 22 years(not as long as some, but enough to have some insight at least), you could consider me a virtual piano "collector". I've either owned or tried MOST of the pianos on the market today, and truth be told, most of them will pass just fine on a project, and the audience will be none the wiser.

But you say the overall sound is more important, to which I say that the resonance of a piano is a HUGE part of what makes the sound the way it is. This is because a true piano relies on everything from the type of felt used on the hammers to the type of wood used on the body, to the position of the lid, the placement of various sound holes underneath the lid to how all the pieces are held together, and much more. And these all react dynamically. It's an acoustic phenomenon. And it's the reason why Pianoteq has so many fans, because it does model these things. It models how the wood reacts with the strings, and how lid position changes not only how loud or damp the sound is, but also changes how the rest of the body resonance reacts due to less sound escaping as fast.

So these things are all important. Even things like listening position can be changed by moving microphones around or in the piano, or whatever. Heck, don't like how a single note is reacting? You can change just that note to make it more boomy, more tinny, have more growl, or whatever.

This would all not matter if it didn't sound good though, and I submit that Pianoteq sounds every bit as good as any library out there. The difference likely comes down to taste and preferred sound, no doubt.

I will say, for anyone who has not tried Pianoteq with a proper fully weighted controller: you haven't experienced Pianoteq the way it was designed. It makes a big difference to try it on a fully weighted controller.

In the end, most of this won't matter to the listener, no doubt about it. But I do think it's an important conversation to have because it helps people understand what's going on. The same way that we discuss sample rates or compression curves or linear phase EQ vs non-linear, etc. Most people will never notice. So these conversations obviously benefit us more than anyone else.

Brent

Many people will disagree with you on this. Which shows just how varied the tastes do get.

The answer to "Does Pianoteq sound like a real piano" is YES. But the question being answered most of the time is "Does Pianoteq sound like YOU want a piano to sound", which will bring any number of different answers.

It's all about taste, and to each his own. There isn't necessarily a wrong answer here.

With that being said, IMO, no sampled piano on the planet PLAYS like Pianoteq, or goes as deep as it does on the minor details of the sound. Whether it sounds good to you or not is a different story.

Brent

And let's emphasize on the point how people can be hypocritical assholes, too:

It's like when somebody eats a dish of food that somebody made for them, saying how delicious it is. Then they find out what was in it, and they want to barf it all out. It's a mental thing that there is an unfortunate amount of in the audio realm. If you never would have said anything, they never would have known, and their internal bias wouldn't come out.

Ya know, I think that it's a perfectly legitimate position to hold to not like Pianoteq. After all, different tastes are part of the way we are.

However, I've talked to a lot of people about Pianoteq, sample libraries, etc. And the vast majority of the time, here are the reasons I've found people don't like it:

1. They haven't tried it.
2. They don't play piano, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but Pianoteq is designed to be played, not programmed.
3. They have a pre-bias against modeling, or are judging on older Pianoteq models.
4. They aren't using a fully weighted controller- again, something Pianoteq is designed for.
5. They have their favorite library and refuse to actually admit something else may be just as good.

Now, some people will get offended by me saying this, so let me just say that this doesn't mean that everyone who hates Pianoteq falls into these categories. Some people just genuinely don't like it. However, I would place money on this being the case MOST of the time. Just look at the headquest post, and you'll see how petty and stupid people can be.

Pianoteq isn't perfect, and if you're looking for something to completely emulate an acoustic instrument, go buy an acoustic instrument. It doesn't exist, not for the piano, not for guitar, not for strings, nothing. And there are a LOT of great libraries out there. I use them every single day. So just take this as a general statement based on what I've seen, nothing more.

Brent

If Pianoteq sounds 'like a real piano', which is it? Which instrument does it sound like, I mean?

Easy... it sounds exactly like "that" piano.

D4 was based on a Hamburg Steinway D.

YC5 was based on Yamaha C5.

Other models are based on various other pianos, I'm not sure which ones precisely (well, except historical pianos which are very obvious).