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Physical modeling can be a great thing.
You barely need any samples, if none at all. You can have ton of control over the sound shaping. And if done right, it can sound darn real. The negative side effect - barely any developer takes the time to fine tune physical modeling. One of the rare examples are 4Front (True Pianos), MODARTT (PianoTeq) and Genuine Soundware (Mr Ray). Actually, Camel Audio (Cameleon 5000) tried to get into the game as well, so did Image Line with one of their synths, but it's still lacking realism. Synful Orchestra is one of these examples: the strings engine is great, the rest... not so. In terms of guitars, it's even more obvious. reFX's attempt with "Slayer" was a great idea, though sounded too unrealistic. This VSTi spawned Mokafix's never released "Dark Lady" bass VSTi idea. And now we have Xhun Audio's "IronAxe" - which brings together the ideas of Slayer, Dark Lady and Line6's Variax pickup system. I took a dive into the audio demos of IronAxe, and I'm positively surprised. You can use different pickups, shape your sound with different tuning and setting of the used strings, etc. But the thing that is the shot in the neck is the playability. Here, MusicLab's RealGuitar is (and will IMO always be) the forerunner in terms of guitar brains (much like Rayzoon Jamstix is for drums). Due to that, the audio demos sound fake, which is contra productive for sales. A real pity IMO. The question is, with all these samples out there, which grow and grow and grow by each release (thanks to RR, variations, more wanted realism, etc)... ...is physical modeling the way to go? Or are we just spoiled with samples and forgot how to "tune" a specific tool to our needs? I mean... people say that RealGuitar sounds "not realistic" - yet with the right EQ and VSTi settings, it's hard to spot that it wasn't played by a real guitarist. And it's only like 50MB of RAM usage (the samples themselves are like 600-900MB, depending on the used sampling rate). Please discuss. |
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| ^ | Joined: 18 Oct 2003 Member: #9761 Location: Berlin, Germany | ||
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You can make great guitar sounds with AAS Chromaphone (and also Tassman and String Studio but I find Chromaphone ironically makes the least muddy sounds). My alltime favourite physically modelled guitar though has to be the Creamware Scope one 6 String - so authentic and yet also highly adaptable.
Synful orchestra and Camel Audio Ca5000 were never physically modelling instruments - they both use a form of additive synthesis and resynthesis - they replicate sounds but not how those sounds are made. ---- My free patches here http://fingermarks.co.uk/music2.htm My Soundcloud page: http://soundcloud.com/amused  |
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| ^ | Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Member: #3838 Location: In teh net | ||
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Synful actually splices samples in realtime, along with some other methods.
TruePianos also uses samples (and quite a lot of them compared to Pianoteq) for the core of its sound, so I don't count it as a true PM synth. |
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| ^ | Joined: 06 Jan 2009 Member: #197719 Location: Croatia | ||
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This is why I said "barely any samples".
Still, what do you people think? Is physical modeling the only way to go to get "real" sounds for certain instruments? Like piano for example, where the modulation of individual strings (resonance due to harmonics) is essential and can't 100% be ported over to samples at a reasonable size. Or is the actual "real" instrument still the only way to go? |
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| ^ | Joined: 18 Oct 2003 Member: #9761 Location: Berlin, Germany | ||
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Yep, for pianos I do think physical modeling is the way. Also for wind instruments. |
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| ^ | Joined: 06 Jan 2009 Member: #197719 Location: Croatia | ||
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Compy,
It's not just about 'real'. It's about flexibity. I LOVE modelled instruments - truly modelled. No samples of any kind (think Microtonic and I believe Modelonia). There is a creative edge to modelled instruments that you just cannot get from other types that rely on samples or waveforms. I am talking about the preset design itself. It gives you freedom to create almost anything within the realm and borders of what's possible for that modelled instrument. I wish I was a talented enough coder to program a modelled synth of any kind. They are truly my favorite types of instruments and I will almost certainly buy any that come out. Mike |
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| ^ | Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Member: #86946 Location: Florida | ||
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Compyfox wrote: Still, what do you people think? Is physical modeling the only way to go to get "real" sounds for certain instruments? Like piano for example, where the modulation of individual strings (resonance due to harmonics) is essential and can't 100% be ported over to samples at a reasonable size. Or is the actual "real" instrument still the only way to go? I think that sampled instrumets are momental winner,becouse are easier to create and easier to play from keyboard on the other side- virtual modeled are harder to create to be realistic enough and same time playable on todays CPU-maybe thats why they are still not so frequent.. personaly Im satisfied with sampled ones for drums and pipe organs, Im not very satisfied with sampled pianos /youve mentioned why/, and Im absolutely not satisfied with instruments which can change tone in realtime - the best example is solo electric guitar - I think it makes no sense to sample such instrument,but I think it can be by virtualy modelled in the distant future...but still I dont think that it will be much easier to learn how to play such VM guitar on keyboard than to learn how to play on real instrument  |
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| ^ | Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Member: #86058 | ||
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Well what about Xhun Audio's creation then?
The soli demos on their Soundclick page sound convincing. But the playability sucks. Now if they'd have a similar brain like Musiclab's RealGuitar(s)... wouldn't this be a killer application? Flexible, yet playable. |
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| ^ | Joined: 18 Oct 2003 Member: #9761 Location: Berlin, Germany | ||
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I've heard them all, and well I might not be a good guitar player but to me, nothing beats the sounds of a real guitar.
Its such a hard instrument to model I imagine due to the complex number of ways a person interacts with it. I mean to make something superb, it would require creating complex mathematical and physics models of these various points below. * The materials the instrument is built with * The acoustic design of the instrument * Player interaction *Super difficult because not every plays guitar the same way, such as not using picks etc* * Sound reflections of the environment being played in (Could be emulated with Impulse Responses) * String interaction with different materials (I.E Picks, calloused fingers, non calloused fingers etc) * String Simulation of various types of strings (I.E Nylon, Steel etc) If someone was to do a good emulation, they would have to put about as much time into it as Modartt has done with their pianoteq engine. |
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| ^ | Joined: 03 Jul 2012 Member: #283583 | ||
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Did you check out Xhun?
Because they are aiming at the same direction like MODARTT - just with a guitar. Like I said, this particular instrument went a long way. I still have to properly test it myself, but I like what I see and hear (at least half of the demos) so far. So... if Pianos were modeled properly by now, to a certain extend even woodwinds, strings and drums. Why shouldn't a guitar be modeled properly as well? |
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| ^ | Joined: 18 Oct 2003 Member: #9761 Location: Berlin, Germany | ||
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Compyfox wrote: Physical modeling can be a great thing.
You barely need any samples, if none at all. You can have ton of control over the sound shaping. And if done right, it can sound darn real. The negative side effect - barely any developer takes the time to fine tune physical modeling. One of the rare examples are 4Front (True Pianos), MODARTT (PianoTeq) and Genuine Soundware (Mr Ray). Actually, Camel Audio (Cameleon 5000) tried to get into the game as well, so did Image Line with one of their synths, but it's still lacking realism. Synful Orchestra is one of these examples: the strings engine is great, the rest... not so. In terms of guitars, it's even more obvious. reFX's attempt with "Slayer" was a great idea, though sounded too unrealistic. This VSTi spawned Mokafix's never released "Dark Lady" bass VSTi idea. And now we have Xhun Audio's "IronAxe" - which brings together the ideas of Slayer, Dark Lady and Line6's Variax pickup system. I took a dive into the audio demos of IronAxe, and I'm positively surprised. You can use different pickups, shape your sound with different tuning and setting of the used strings, etc. But the thing that is the shot in the neck is the playability. Here, MusicLab's RealGuitar is (and will IMO always be) the forerunner in terms of guitar brains (much like Rayzoon Jamstix is for drums). Due to that, the audio demos sound fake, which is contra productive for sales. A real pity IMO. The question is, with all these samples out there, which grow and grow and grow by each release (thanks to RR, variations, more wanted realism, etc)... ...is physical modeling the way to go? Or are we just spoiled with samples and forgot how to "tune" a specific tool to our needs? I mean... people say that RealGuitar sounds "not realistic" - yet with the right EQ and VSTi settings, it's hard to spot that it wasn't played by a real guitarist. And it's only like 50MB of RAM usage (the samples themselves are like 600-900MB, depending on the used sampling rate). Please discuss. How could you not mention AAS even once when talking about physical modeling? ---- my music: http://www.soundclick.com/alexcooper “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” |
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| ^ | Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Member: #5079 Location: MD USA | ||
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Xaviero2012 wrote: If someone was to do a good emulation, they would have to put about as much time into it as Modartt has done with their pianoteq engine. I dont think so,becouse theres not much to be changed in piano tone after the key is hit,but in solo guitar you can do almost infite number of things to change it in realtime /and I not speaking about almost infinite number of ways how to excite the guitar string.../ Just one example-on Strat type guitar u can hit all strings and use tremolo...I dont think it can be modelled as easily as piano,becouse every string will than detune sligtly different way depending on the gauge of strings and position of fingers...detuning can be very fast and deep same time=resampling=huge and hearable aliasing and spectral leaking and other artifacts not present in real guitar...etc. Another huge problem to model-guitar feedback...AFAIK impossssible to do without real pickups and real strings on real instrument... 
EDIT - now I ve heard the Xhun demo on their web...I needed to stop it after 20 seconds...hope I will never hear it soon becouse I love guitar tone,but not something crappy like this,and I can say that it reminds me the very first version of Moddart piano and based on the fact that the last (4) version of pianoteq is almost acceptable for me...I will wait till Xhun v4 and than visit it again and hope it will be fine, too Last edited by kvaca on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| ^ | Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Member: #86058 | ||
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there was the roland super distortion feedbacker.
thereve been a lot of hits with fake guitar already. sadly by the time the physical models come to fruition guitar will be out of style and the difinitive sound of "old" music, much like accordion. right now im listening to a recording of last nights show and a violin solo i took using garritan stradivari where i often use my yamaha vl70m and i can't decide which to continue using, each have nice things about them. vl70m slurs better (legato). id love a vsti of the vl70m, im sure it would only take em an afternoon to get it out if they could just get rid of the lawyers. |
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| ^ | Joined: 14 Jun 2003 Member: #7618 | ||
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Tony Ostinato wrote: there was the roland super distortion feedbacker.
AFAIK without real guitar it still doesnt work,at least not the same way Tony Ostinato wrote: sadly by the time the physical models come to fruition guitar will be out of style and the difinitive sound of "old" music, much like accordion. accordion is out becouse arrival of cheap keyboard ROM-players...but what instrument do you think will replace guitar?? |
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| ^ | Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Member: #86058 | ||
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Compyfox wrote: This is why I said "barely any samples".
Still, what do you people think? Is physical modeling the only way to go to get "real" sounds for certain instruments? Like piano for example, where the modulation of individual strings (resonance due to harmonics) is essential and can't 100% be ported over to samples at a reasonable size. Or is the actual "real" instrument still the only way to go? I remember when Physical Modelling was something that was expected to promote world peace and all sorts of other nonsense. It was 'the future'. If it was that good, then why are we still using multi-Giga-Byte sample Libraries now? I'll answer that question myself. It's because multi-Giga-Byte sample Libraries still sound better. Much better in fact. I've yet to hear anything really convincing coming the way of PM. I like it. It's cute but no substitute imho. Quote: (today's topic: guitars)
Ok. It might be good for ... em ... Banjos or something. |
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| ^ | Joined: 11 Aug 2008 Member: #186852 Location: Dark Side of the Moonies |
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