Hi all.

I miss arround with a psy trance bassline since weeks but don't realy get the sound I want to have.. tons of nice basslines come out of that synths but not the one I'm looking for so I'm tryng now to post it here as there are lot of smart ppl arround =)
Looking to make a night psy bass with very heavy low end. Want that flowing kick-to-bass pressure, where the bass kind of picks up the lower harmonics of the kick and carries it through the beat, in a punchy way.
Mid-High shall sound like a crips saw, having a strong punch a the start of the note.
You could describe it as the bass a bit sounding like the kick played 3 more times on the beat, but saw style... difficult to exmplain.
Best example what I would like to achive is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsGf9RkjUyE
(I know youtube might not be the be best source to listen to the bassline^^ but you get the idea).

So long story short: what's the trick..? -.-
I get the basic sound, but doon't even come close to the chris rich track.
Tried several setups already, with single synth, sperate-sub bass layer, ect.
Closes result I got with with 2 synths, booth saw, one filtered out at 200Hz the next starting arround that. Low-cut 48db/oct at arround 40Hz, Hi-Cut at arround 4Hz for the last 2 bass notes and ~1Hz for the first, Hi-Cut with envelope, no attack, ~10-20ms decay, 5-10% sustain, minimal release. Compression 1:4, attack arround20, long release. Kick-side-chain compression at 1:6, minimal attack, ~20-40ms release. Both, kick and bass channed into a compression/saturation unit (VintageWarmer).

So... finaly the questions..

1) The saw on the track above sounds way more "crisp" than my one does. No it's not the EQ. I can make it "more crips" arrond the 400Hz spot, but my source already sounds differnt. My one sounds like a saw with its well known harmonics, the track above doesn't.
Anyone able to hear what source osc is working there?
Is it really a pure saw? Closest I was able to get is with a quad saw osc, but still not as "crisp" I want to have.. talking about that 300-800Hz spot where you hear a saw through on the track above (IMHO).
2) The punch. I really want the bass notes to kick in. No fly, no deep, .. but BAM. It must be the attack setting of something, but can't figure it out.. -.-. With decay and using and non-linear env on LPF I able to create that mid/hi-freq punch, but I miss the lower end. My initial idea was to just on work on the attack of the sub compressor to get the punch at the start before the compression kcisk in. Does realy have the effect I was hoping for... any more ideas?
3) Is there anything special to create the pump on the first note?
On the track above it sounds like he is playing K-B-b-b where B is a "fat" bass note and b a "less fast" bass. Did it by opening the LPF more on b than on B. Kind of creates the same feeling, but not exactly that. It's what I described above, the first note picks up the sub of the kick and carries it over to the 2. and 3. node, where the LPF opens. At least to me it sounds like that, but might be wrong.

So.... sorry for the long post, but working on that since weeks now I wanted to give you a godd idea of I waht to achive.
Let's see if there are ppl here also messing arround with kind of bass.
Happy for any tip you can give me =)

peace

(and no, don't tell me to not take it so serious, bass is just one element on the track.. making basslines since 3 years i'm not 100% happy with.. I'm pissed now.. wan't to have that 100% and nothing less ;P )

I can't address every single question you are asking here, but I have messed around with psytrance basslines a fair bit and have had some good results. You probably know all this but.. :

The key for me was getting the attack and decay right on the envelope, and getting the sidechain right.

A simple saw wave (no unison).
Low pass filter (up to you if and how hard you want this)
a fairly fast attack and a similar shaped decay, so the envelope is a triangular shape. Set the bass looping with the kick and fiddle with the envelope until it has the desired flow

Sidechain compression, such that the kick lowers the volume of the bass.

If you're looking for that 'dugadugadugadugadugaduga' classic psytrance bass then have the bass triggering 4 times for every beat, and you'll get a nice pumping sound when the beat kicks. You can get different styles by fiddling the settings like the compression and threshold

The rest is a case of fiddling the oscillators, trying different pitches and octaves and levels of sub oscillator (if ure synth has one). And then fatten it up with some tube saturation or something

Apologies if I am covering stuff you already know. If you're still not getting the results you want, try a different synth! I use a Virus TI so it sounds phat by default

Thanks for the response =)
Yeah.. it's like you describe.. knowing the theory about how make it is just litte piece IMHO.. the fine-tuning is the difficult part :/
Was just hoping that there is something I didn't considered...

Do you have any expirience with using disortion in mid/hi bands? If compare my bass to the "chris bass" i hear way less harmonics. Using a quad instead of a single osc already goes in the right direction, but there is something more in that creates does "cripsy" harmonics.. might be just the phase on a very specific value or might be something else.. don't know :/

Getting the envelope times right so that the kick finishes right when the bass starts is crucial, and at the other end of the beat so that the bass stops when the next kick starts.

The levels of kick vs. bass are also very important for getting the trance effect right. Either too loud / soft and it will sound wrong.

Using swing will help to achieve the darker bass line feel, where the bass is rushing ahead of the beat (or something ... it's difficult to put int to words ). Hard quantised 16th notes is not always desirable and certainly won't have the desired groove. Adding a bit of swing to the 2nd and 4th bass notes can give it that quicker, darker night time feel.

You also need to look at layering or splitting the bass sound and adding effects to specific bands e.g. a relatively clean low end, with distortion in the mid range and delay chorus higher up again. This can be as simple as sending the signal to a band pass filter + effects, then mixing back in with the original signal + overdrive, saturation, compression to glue it back together.

Anyway, check out this bass tutorial by Tom Cosm, it should provide some good ideas and provides a nice hint for that dark triplet kick feel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etRN4sAiCbI

(he has loads of other great tutorials, check 'em out).

There are lots of excellent tutorials here:

http://mrbillstunes.com/tuition/video-tutorials/

Hope that helps.

Peace,
Andy.

I haven't experimented specifically with disortion in mid/hi bands in this context, but every synth I make I will play around with different saturations settings on the filter and different saturation at the end stage, my synth has quite a few colours you can add at the end like 'speaker cabinet', 'analogue boost' etc, also an analogue modelling filter based on the moog, these things I will often use to get the quality I want in a bass, something I want to be warm and chunky. Try something like SPL twin tube to add extra harmonics and a nice tone perhaps.

Generally I think for psy bass the trick is not to have loads of oscillators, wanting to avoid phasing sounds and messy tones, you ideally want one simple but powerful waveform.
The Virus has an algorithm that models analogue oscillators so sounds full and warm by itself, but there are software synths that do the same thing, check out the Korg Legacy MS-20 VST, I use that loads and even simple sounds from it are rather powerful and tasty (where other software synths might sound flat and digital). It's also awesome for the psy-squeak and squelchy noises so it's a worthwhile investment.

Also there are dedicated VSTs for making psytrance basslines! I can't remember them off the top of my mind but look around, these might be worth checking out.

Hey guys.

Thanks for all the help, especially the video and tutorial link!
Re-started from scratch yesterday again removing anything than the side-chain comp and 2 saw osc with LPF and spend a couple of hours only twiking filter envelope and osc phases.. and you are right, it's realy only about getting those 3-4 knobs right.
I'm comming closer now =) great tips on the video was the pitch env on the sub-bass.. could have found out this on my own.. if the sub-bass shall feel like a kick, pitch it like a kick.. <.< also the phase on both osc plays a key role on how many harmonics you hear and if saw sounds warm or dark.
I will keep you up to date and post a guide how i did if I finally manage to create this 100% bassline =)

Hey PurpleSunray how are you getting on? I'm working on exactly the same thing, there's no point in making a psytrance tune if the mix isn't right.

I've been mucking around with Abletons basics like Operator, but I've found the SAW wave on the free Mantis307 plugin to be much fatter.

The thing I'm struggling with now is what to do in the stereo field, like I've got a test which sounds great on my speakers, but terrible in headphones, nowhere near ready for a PA system. And headphones are the closest thing to a loud PA except the missing bass frequencies yea?

That TomCosm video does explain the multi-track bass sounds well, and that's the kind of direction I'm working in, but still I just want a really good but simple SAW, like you are saying in this thread.

"Was just hoping that there is something I didn't considered..."
hehe me too, a magic button? Certainly for me a lot of this is monitoring, despite having proper headphones and proper monitors I don't feel comfortable at the moment - particularly the vast difference between phones and speakers; I seam to be able mix for one of those; but not both.

One major thing I noticed in headphones was the default compression FB2 in Ableton is very rough sounding as a sidechain, so I switch it to FB1 now for a more transparent effect.

I will setup a soundcloud page for this psy project in a mo ... u got one?
Cheers,
Chris

You could give this thread a read...

http://forum.isratrance.com/the-mother-of-all-basslines-thre ad/

Perhaps start a couple pages in as the first few are a bit dated.

Cheers Deranger .. big thread. More talk of hardware gear that I was expecting; this is an exercise in software for me, I thought.

Various ideas like "placing the notes a millisecond or so back".
Also the discussion about if/when to bounce to audio...

Lots to think about...

I will give an update soon =)
Decided to go with Zeta2 as synth as I was already familiar with and and the envelopes are pretty nice there. Have 2 layers, a saw-sub (single osc) and a saw-mid/hi (dual osc)
The "magic" buttons after you have the filter envs. where you want them to be are the phase of the OSCs and frequency on LPF of the sub and HPF of the mid/hi.
Difficult to explain what the phase knob does, just try it - IMHO you cloud describe it as the character of you mid/hi bass - dark or warm.
The cros-over frequency of the filter is very important when it comes to the "pressure" - you need to find the sweet spot. For me it was somewhere in between 150 and 400HZ and since this is the range where the "punch" resides you really need to pay attention on how you filter in-/out the layers to not get any gaps, but also no interferences between sub and mid.
On the mid layer I did some more processing - but I will post a step by step guide soon.

And about the monitoring problem you have: you really need to get a sub if you want to work on basslines. A key to such heavy sounds is having a very defined and sharp lower end. If you look at the spectrum of that track below, everything below around ~40Hz falls down very very quickly. Gives space for the frequencies you actually want to push. The problem you have with headphones and "small" speakers is that you won't hear that. Might sound cool on a speaker that stops at 40Hz but as soon you turn on the sub it might sounds muddy because something went wrong below. So for bass design you need to have a system also able to play bass - all parts of it, otherwise it will be very difficult to get it right.

i can help you if you personally message me, this is kind of what i do but not exactly, this is without the prcesing i use but the basic synth patch is made this way sort of.x

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pvti8PwA5s

Yea monitoring is the root of my probs for sure - but its not lack of equipment, I have Alesis Monitor One MkII's, I have a sub bass box tho I'm not even sure if its turned on tbh, and my little squarish studio room has acoustic treatment to knock out the high-end reflections.

Yes, little squarish studio, almost a cube with one slanted side .. funny that I never worried about this so much until that room was built and I moved the gear in there........ There's certainly no shortage of bass in the studio, but my problem is that its not a consistent result; if all my tunes came out too bassy then I'd know how to fix them; its not that simple. I need some calibration between my ears, my monitors, and my headphones...

My latest test has turned out the closest to date for sure, using analog oscillators in a sampler; the one labelled Psytrance18b on my OSCLab page. Note how Psytrance16c is very different and lacks a lot of frequencies in comparison.

I could copy that Yadah video and it would sound great in the studio - take it elsewhere and it's likely to be terrible. I go round n round in circles. Cheers for all ideas : )

BTW - Nice1 chrisrichbsm : ) Just twigged the name. What do you monitor on? Like do you start on speakers/monitors and then later go to headphones to tidy up? Or the other way round? Or what? Do you have a huge PA system to test on?! Thnx

Just one more remark from my side:



Check the positioning of your monitors.
Near field monitors are designed to overcome exactly that. If they are positioned right it shouldn't matter to much how the room looks like as you are sitting in the middle of the acoustic field - decreasing very fast of you move out of that zone (the near-field characteristic) so reflections shouldn't be that problematic usually.

Cheers, you can see the studio here, it certainly sounds a lot different placing the head forwards or backwards from the equilateral triangle position, and I might be leaning forwards too much. Also noticed the padding in my headphones has gradually worn away and the cones are a lot closer to my ears than intended; thus more bassy.

I seam to have the bass nearly correct on this latest test, though I can't explain how mixes on subsequent days can sound completely different! As I said; my latest two tests have wildly different responses outside of the studio.

http://soundcloud.com/osclab/psytrance18b-wip

Kinda lost the thread you started Sunray .. must get back to those full-on bass sounds and try to achieve what you started this thread for... Will have another crack later... : )