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One more try: HELP! VSTGUI 3.6 on OSX x64, possible? How?

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:41 am One more try: HELP! VSTGUI 3.6 on OSX x64, possible? How?

Subject says it all. My VST plug-ins are all VSTGUI 3.6 based. What, exactly, is the procedure for getting them to compile as x64 on OSX? It IS possible, right?

And please go easy on me, even after a few years I still feel like I have one hand tied behind my back when I'm coding for the Mac. Also let me know what the minimum OSX and XCode versions to do this on are.

If you can get me going on this, I'll give you free licenses of all my software, forever. :help:
KVRAF
 
4426 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:22 pm

Check your libraries 64 bit compatibility?

Check any preprocessor mumbo jumbo which the compiler didn't catch?

Ask a professional? :lol:
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KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:30 pm

camsr wrote:Check your libraries 64 bit compatibility?

Check any preprocessor mumbo jumbo which the compiler didn't catch?

Ask a professional? :lol:


I could have sworn I was a professional. ;)

Well, this is part of what I'm asking. CAN VSTGUI 3.6 be simply ported to x64 on OSX just by changing some preprocessor definitions and included libararies/frameworks? (On Windows it was 5 minutes' work!) Or does all that C++ code in VSTGUI have to get replaced with (shudder) Objective C? Which I've heard is the only thing you can use to build Cocoa GUIs, and that Cocoa GUI is required for x64 compatibility.

It's not that I have a compilation error camsr, it's that I don't even know where to start. Well, I went at this a couple years ago and was trying SOMETHING (which I now forget) then found out my Leopard OS wasn't sufficient to build or run x64 on. I have a Snow Leopard machine now... which I don't want to upgrade for fear of breaking backward compatibility. (A fear apparently nobody else in the Apple world has. Maybe I should just jump on the "break it every two years and force them to buy it all again" bandwagon. Sigh...)

I'm not a big company with deep pockets. There are really more important things I need to buy right now than more f-ing Macs. Though I really do love this little Mac Book Air. But again, I'm afraid if I upgrade its OS then I'll have to upgrade XCode to the pay version, which I am loathe to do. And that I might be left in a situation I can't reverse from where I can no longer compile existing projects for previously supported versions of the operating system.
KVRAF
 
4426 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:59 pm

Objective C? That is ludicrous. One would have to wonder how many old apps work on a new mac these days.
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KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:03 pm

camsr wrote:Objective C? That is ludicrous. One would have to wonder how many old apps work on a new mac these days.


None! That's not their model. Their model is force the developers to make non-backward compatible apps, to force the users to upgrade their OS, to force the users to then have to upgrade all their APPS in a never ending loop of intentional, planned obsolescence!

Meanwhile, Windows software I wrote in 1995 still runs! (Hell, 16 bit Windows software I wrote in 1991 still ran up until Win XP!)

It disgusts me and it's a game I don't want to play (even if I could afford to).

:tantrum:

So anyway... help? CAN VSTGUI 3.6 based projects be complied for x64 on OSX? Anyone?
Last edited by AdmiralQuality on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KVRAF
 
4426 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:04 pm

But how could they force a programmer to use one language?
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KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:08 pm

camsr wrote:But how could they force a programmer to use one language?


Because it's not machine code, it's "managed" code. And it's THEIR language and THEIR OS. So they can do whatever they want. (Like C-Sharp for Windows, except you don't NEED to make Win apps out of C-Sharp because Microsoft almost NEVER break backward compatibility. C-Sharp is just another option, not required for anything.)

Anyway, I'm hoping that it's not actually the case and there IS a way to make the old C++ Carbon GUI code work in x64. Anyone?
KVRAF
 
4426 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:24 pm

Here is a thread with some relevant details:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=246143
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KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:29 pm

camsr wrote:Here is a thread with some relevant details:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=246143


Old wives' tales. I need facts and procedures.

Note that I'd be happy to retrofit some pre-existing Objective-C code into the project. I just have a major fraction of a man-year invested in modifying VSTGUI 3.6 to my needs, as well as years of user testing and a currently bug-free status, so I'm "married to it" for all the right reasons.

But if I can replace the low-level stuff somehow, and leave the higher level classes intact, that's fine. But I don't want to write a LINE of Objective-C, I resent being forced to.
KVRAF
 
1931 posts since 16 Aug, 2004, from Vienna, Austria
 

Postby arakula; Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:46 pm

IMO it's no good idea to touch the Mac - exactly for this reason. An unreliable OS where all sorts of interfaces are thrown over regularly, and the only constant is that your work's never done? No thank you.
"Until you spread your wings, you'll have no idea how far you can walk." Image
KVRian
 
582 posts since 23 Jun, 2002, from York, UK
 

Postby hibrasil; Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:16 am

Not sure, but I think you'll have to upgrade to VSTGUI4 to do x64. In any case, because apple removed carbon stuff from the 10.7 and 10.8 sdks, the days are numbered when you'll be able to compile 32bit plug-ins with VSTGUI3.6 (unless you keep your 10.6 install forever). I am staying on 10.6 for as long as I can. You can run 10.8 as a virtual machine BTW (or dual boot), which might be a good way of keeping your existing setup.
pMix | Endless Series V3 Shepard Tone Plugin | WDL-OL Plugin dev framework
Available for consultancy/tuition via Skype (help with IPlug/JUCE/MaxMSP)
KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:51 am

arakula wrote:IMO it's no good idea to touch the Mac - exactly for this reason. An unreliable OS where all sorts of interfaces are thrown over regularly, and the only constant is that your work's never done? No thank you.


Precisely.

Unfortunately Hermann, that's where most of our sales come from these days, as there's no working crack out there for the Mac. As much as I'd love to abandon it, we're hooked. :(
KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:05 am

hibrasil wrote:Not sure, but I think you'll have to upgrade to VSTGUI4 to do x64.

You missed the part about me being "married" to VSTGUI 3.6. I just simply can't throw most of a year's work and many years of testing away and START ALL OVER AGAIN. Check out the knobs on Poly-Ana. They actually work in all THREE VST knob modes (linear, circular, and RELATIVE CIRCULAR -- which nobody else but me actually implements), can be switched between them on the fly by using modifier keys, can be set to have endstops at any angle, or no endstops at all to allow free-wheeling knobs that go round-and-round, and a detent system for having them snap to regularly spaced sweet spots. There's an incredible amount of work, testing, and bug fixing in that and at this point it's 100% bug-free. Now I'm supposed to throw it all away and start again from scratch in VSTGUI 4 (which from what I'm seeing on the mailing list, is bug ridden)? NO WAY!!!

But let's put it this way, what does VSTGUI 4 do to make itself x64/Cocoa compatible? And can that be applied to VSTGUI 3.6?


In any case, because apple removed carbon stuff from the 10.7 and 10.8 sdks, the days are numbered when you'll be able to compile 32bit plug-ins with VSTGUI3.6 (unless you keep your 10.6 install forever).

And maybe you also you missed the part about us avoiding upgrading so we don't break backward compatibility and have to pay Apple for the new XCode. ;)
I am staying on 10.6 for as long as I can. You can run 10.8 as a virtual machine BTW (or dual boot), which might be a good way of keeping your existing setup.


Ah, yes. Same here. So, what do I NEED 10.8 for? 10.6 can compile for x64, right?

The whole thing is sickening. I'd like to dig up Steve Jobs so I can strangle his corpse. ;)
KVRian
 
582 posts since 23 Jun, 2002, from York, UK
 

Postby hibrasil; Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:21 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:So, what do I NEED 10.8 for?


For transitioning to a more future-proof setup. Although I am sticking on 10.6 for now, I know that when my computer breaks I'll need a new one which will only run 10.8 or higher. Can't allow that to mean that I can no longer build my plugins, so I will update my build setup so that it works on 10.8, with XCode4.5+.

I don't know that much about VSTGUI4, but it seems that Steinberg and others do some pretty smart GUIs with it, and as far as I can see the main change is that it is more modularized than v3.6. If I were using VSTGUI I'd be keen to upgrade.

perhaps you just have to break backwards compatibility with the next major version of your plug? Or make compromises with the amount of flexibility your knobs have!

To be honest, I think if you put half as much energy into facing these challenges as you do moaning about them, you'd probably work it all out pretty quickly. I spent the last couple of years improving IPlug so that I could do cross platform, x64, multi-format easily etc, and although it was painful at times (and i did moan a bit i think), in the end I learnt a lot and it was worth it.
pMix | Endless Series V3 Shepard Tone Plugin | WDL-OL Plugin dev framework
Available for consultancy/tuition via Skype (help with IPlug/JUCE/MaxMSP)
KVRAF
 
6287 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:26 am

hibrasil wrote:
AdmiralQuality wrote:So, what do I NEED 10.8 for?


For transitioning to a more future-proof setup.

"Future proof"? This is APPLE we're talking about here. I'm trying to PAST-PROOF my software!



Although I am sticking on 10.6 for now, I know that when my computer breaks I'll need a new one which will only run 10.8 or higher. Can't allow that to mean that I can no longer build my plugins, so I will update my build setup so that it works on 10.8, with XCode4.5+.


Another thing that only happens in Apple-land. I can still install DOS on a modern PC!

I don't know that much about VSTGUI4, but it seems that Steinberg and others do some pretty smart GUIs with it, and as far as I can see the main change is that it is more modularized than v3.6. If I were using VSTGUI I'd be keen to upgrade.


Not as smart as mine.

And again, if I upgrade, all my subclassing of controls to make them actually work right and extend their functionality to actually cover VST's SUPPOSED functionality (like all 3 knob modes, circular relative is defined but totally ignored in VST/VSTGUI) is gone and I have to start almost year's work over again from scratch.

And as I need to maintain a common code-base for both platforms, what are my Windows customers who currently enjoy an almost 100% bug-free plug-in going to think if I go and break everything and return to a testing point equivalent to 6 years ago?


perhaps you just have to break backwards compatibility with the next major version of your plug? Or make compromises with the amount of flexibility your knobs have!


Then I'd be as bad as them. And I'm sure my customers (at least those who were wise enough to not upgrade their OS at Apple's whim) will appreciate being abandoned. (NOT!)

To be honest, I think if you put half as much energy into facing these challenges as you do moaning about them, you'd probably work it all out pretty quickly.

Come here and say that.

I spent the last couple of years improving IPlug so that I could do cross platform, x64, multi-format easily etc, and although it was painful at times (and i did moan a bit i think), in the end I learnt a lot and it was worth it.


Good for you. Do your knobs do everything mine do? No. Do you have a product with over 200 controls to maintain? No. I'm looking for help here, not pooh-poohing.
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