Now after the official announcement of Live 9,
there is no mention from Ableton about their PDC problem.

Since Live has been released the PDC isn't working properly.
No fix has been done after three years !
Now they move on to a newer version and the PDC is still not fixed.
But..., no word about this and no comment to any questions made so far.

So they want to sell you a new version of Live and know it has a problem that they couldn't fix in the last three years...!

(edited to concentrate on facts and leave my anger out, sorry)
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------
addendum:

Here are two selected text from the old manual from the Live 8.0.1 release
and the one from the newer manual from Live 8.2.2 !

Live manual 8.0.1:
Device delay compensation is on by default and does not normally have to be adjusted
in any way. However, Live Sets that were created with Live 4 or earlier will open without
device delay compensation. To manually turn latency compensation on (or off), use the
Delay Compensation option in the Options menu.
Unusually high individual track delays or reported latencies from plug-ins may cause noticeable
sluggishness in the software. If you are having latency-related difficulties while recording and playing back instruments, you may want to try turning off device delay compensation, however this is not normally recommended. You may also and that adjusting the individual track delays is useful in these cases.
Note that device delay compensation can, depending on the number of tracks and devices in use, increase the CPU load.

Live manual 8.2.2:
Note: there are a few situations
• Automation is not delay compensated.
that contain devices that cause
• Tempo-synced effects and other
clock may sound out of sync
cause delay.
Device delay compensation is on
in any way. However, Live Sets
device delay compensation. To
Delay Compensation option in the
Unusually high individual track delays noticeable
sluggishness in the software.
recording and playing back instruments, compensation,
however this is not normally
individual track delays is useful in
are unavailable when device delay
Note that device delay compensation
in use, increase the CPU load.

You can look yourself if you don't believe me,
or wait till someone who has the old manual too can confirm this.

------------------------------------------------------------ -------------
edit:

Here is a self test you can do to test this PDC issue for your self.
I copied that from the PDC-thread on Ableton forum.
Here is the link to it: https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884

Automation
Tempo synced plugs

go out of time when you add plugs

test one - "automation"

make "automation" 1 beat up 1 beat down (filter on off switch will do it)
add a few plugs
listen to the "automation" being wrong every plug you add


test 2 - tempo sync plug

add a tempo sync plug (like noise gate or LFO filter set to square )
add a few plugs after is ok
add a few plugs BEFORE "tempo sync plug" is out of time
listen to the "tempo sync plug" being wrong every plug you add
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------
Addendum 2: Here are tests made by a user and posted on Ableton forum
describing situations when Live's PDC isn't working !!!

It's rather complex and not so easy as some say it is.
He also added analyzer pictures of the tested tracks.

Many users will not understand how to avoid such situations
and run into it without knowing.
Even some more advanced producer will have hard times to understand
what the problem is and how to avoid these.

See yourself:

https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884&start=3 15
https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884&start=3 45
Last edited by Wellenmacher on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:49 am; edited 13 times in total

Unfortunately, there probably are not enough users complaining about it to warrant it being "worth their time" to fix it. You'll see a lot of people here, on Gearslutz, and on their own forums complaining about it, but honestly, that represents a REALLY small portion of their total user base.

Most people probably either never run into the issue or don't notice it and/or ignore when they DO run into it. The sad truth is, Ableton wants to sell software, and "new shiny" sells more copies than "we fixed the PDC problem our advanced users are having."

To be clear, I agree 100% with you that it should be fixed. It just probably never will be...

It's very simple !


People have to be more united and create a force against such behavior.
Just posting and complaining doesn't help at all.
Last edited by Wellenmacher on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:00 am; edited 1 time in total

Try the demo and if it doesn't have PDC then don't buy it. I'm not sure if you'd get a refund if a demo is available. A host without PDC is ridiculous in 2012. What are Ableton thinking?

Well, no, it's not that simple. You definitely don't have a legal case against them, in spite of what you think. If you want to waste your time trying to lawyer up against them for a couple hundred dollars, I suppose you can, but I would advise you not to bother.

Honestly, don't worry so much about it. If the semi-broken PDC keeps you awake at night, just sell your license and move on. Life is too short for all this outrage and pitchforks and such. It's really not that big of a deal.

It has PDC, FYI. It just has a fatal flaw that makes it work improperly under specific conditions. It affects me and a lot of people here, but honestly, a large majority of the Live user-base is completely oblivious to it, and they continue using Live happily. Like you said, try the demo, see if you like it. If not, just move on already. Yeah, it sucks, but music production is supposed to be fun, and you would think Ableton had raped some people's grandmothers the way this PDC issue is talked about.

Bangin' ass kickdrums are fun. Floppy cardboard kickdrums are not.

This isn't some audiophile issue.

No comment on Live per se, don't use it. As to the "lawyer" thing, welll... maybe a little silly for two reasons.

1. You'd probably pay the lawyer way more than you paid for the software so it would be financially pointless ... and...

2. I'm pretty sure when you install software you implicitly agree to take it "as is". I'd be shocked if that wasn't clearly spelled out in all software user agreements that nobody really reads.

Then, of course, you'd have to explain why you didn't find the issue in the demo before you bought it.

I said above that I agree that it is an issue, and as I mentioned in the other thread where this is discussed, I know I can't trust Live for any large complex projects any more, because yes, the timing gets all sorts of jacked up.

I just think people should chill out about it. Nobody is being forced to buy Live. If someone can't work around the issue, he/she should just move on to another DAW. Ableton is obviously not putting any priority on fixing the issue.

after spending $500

or $800 for Suite

"eh, it didn't work, no big deal" as i squirm and squeeze another gold brick out of my unemployed ass

Regards, "get as is"!
When you buy a software with a promised function, it has to be working.
There is no way a company can sell a problematic half functional product
and get away with.

Is it O.K. to forget about hundreds of dollars, you spent for a software and then say; "It's not working, forget about it it's my fault I bought it"!

The bug in the PDC was also not so clear and came only up after more serious work with larger projects. Many people didn't even recognize it, only after
the complaints of some have come up.
It's nothing you would find out by testing a software demo usually.
..., but in any case..., Ableton has to fix that issue in Live8.
They got money for it, so they are responsible to fix it.

What they want to try now, is to get away from this responsibility.
Worse, they leave this unfixed in the newer version too, and charge you !
There is no way they should get away with this.

Ableton has to fix Live8 first or give newer versions free to the Live8 customers, which they don't like to do.

Propellerheads gave their latest version almost for free,
when they combined Reason and Record.
They made changes, and didn't charge their customers.
They have been very generous and bound their customer more tight
to Propellerheads with this move.

A perfect example how to be !!!
Last edited by Wellenmacher on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:01 am; edited 2 times in total

Yay! I just put my flame-retardant suit on today!

Maybe if you're so broke, you should scrutinize your expenditures a little more carefully next time...

That's for me in this thread, though. This is beyond reason.

9. EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY: EXCEPT IN RESPECT OF PERSONAL INJURY OR
DEATH CAUSED DIRECTLY BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF ABLETON, IN NO EVENT
WILL ABLETON BE LIABLE TO LICENSEE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING
ANY LOST PROFITS, LOST SAVINGS, LOSS OF DATA OR ANY INDIRECT,
SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE
USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE SUCH SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ABLETON HAS BEEN
ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

No word about a not working function !