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Wide clean saws

How to make that sound...

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

PaulDassler
KVRist
 
110 posts since 18 Oct, 2010

Postby PaulDassler; Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:41 am Wide clean saws

PHey guys i have one simple question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8aBuRCcfSY 1:00

Basically the sound is clear for me, stacked saws, distortion, eq, maybe compression.
But especially in Mord Fustang's tracks i detect so much power and brightness in his saws. How can i get such a brightness and a stereo feeling with that synths. Someone told me to copy the presets, and change some settings and the pan position to get a brighter synth, but the result was not so impressive, maybe i did something wrong!

Thx,
Paul
PaulDassler
KVRist
 
110 posts since 18 Oct, 2010

Postby PaulDassler; Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:05 pm

:(
ouroboros
KVRAF
 
7897 posts since 16 Apr, 2003, from -on the outside looking in

Postby ouroboros; Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Hi Paul,
interesting question. There are a couple of considerations I think.
1st, the saws themselves, and there are a couple of ways to go about it. You need not just stacked saws, but detuned saws in a synth with a large number of unison voices detuned just a bit.

This adds some of the body and hiss to the sound of the saws. You might add a little white noise if your synth has it, too, as an experiment.

The 2nd issue is the stereo setting. Again, you might create 2 instances of the above settings and just pan them hard left and right, but I suspect there is more going on here. So I would start by adding a chorus with no delay, with a 50% depth setting, a rate around 200hz and spread (if available) as wide as possible. If this is unfamiliar, just slap the free TAL chorus after the signal and tweak..

If this isn't wide enough, you will need some real stereo trickeration by either introducing a slight delay - just a few ms in either the L or R channel, or use a plugin with Mid/Side encoding that will allow you to emphasize the "side" signal.

And I imagine there is some compression applied somewhere in there, too.
Btw, what synth do you normally use?
PaulDassler
KVRist
 
110 posts since 18 Oct, 2010

Postby PaulDassler; Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:22 am

ouroboros wrote:Hi Paul,
interesting question. There are a couple of considerations I think.
1st, the saws themselves, and there are a couple of ways to go about it. You need not just stacked saws, but detuned saws in a synth with a large number of unison voices detuned just a bit.

This adds some of the body and hiss to the sound of the saws. You might add a little white noise if your synth has it, too, as an experiment.

The 2nd issue is the stereo setting. Again, you might create 2 instances of the above settings and just pan them hard left and right, but I suspect there is more going on here. So I would start by adding a chorus with no delay, with a 50% depth setting, a rate around 200hz and spread (if available) as wide as possible. If this is unfamiliar, just slap the free TAL chorus after the signal and tweak..

If this isn't wide enough, you will need some real stereo trickeration by either introducing a slight delay - just a few ms in either the L or R channel, or use a plugin with Mid/Side encoding that will allow you to emphasize the "side" signal.

And I imagine there is some compression applied somewhere in there, too.
Btw, what synth do you normally use?


I normally use sylenth and massive for my synths, i think Mord Fustang used like 4 layers , 2 for the main sound, 2 to get a better stereo feeling to it (pan). I also love his bass but i dont think its too complicated. My problem is: when someone told me to compress the synth i normally group them together and compress them a bit to gel them together. But how should i use the compressor? Maybe he used a multiband but when i try to compress the synths, it doesnt make any difference...i would love to see his settings haha
PaulDassler
KVRist
 
110 posts since 18 Oct, 2010

Postby PaulDassler; Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:53 pm

I would love to see what other people can achieve with some basic saw chords, i could create a project with some basic chords and add my normal fx chain to it!
i work with fl studio, but i could work with ableton aswell!
ouroboros
KVRAF
 
7897 posts since 16 Apr, 2003, from -on the outside looking in

Postby ouroboros; Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:04 pm

yeah, compression is black magic, but I still think that sound is can be achieved with your tools. I will try and whip something up,, but it will be a while. In the meantime, try this -
get the sound basically how you want it,
then clone the channel in FL.
Send it to a different mixer channel.
On the new channel, place the FL Stereo Shaper on it and set it to "aSide" preset. This locates the side channel only. Now put your compressor on this channel to squash it. It might bring more presence on the sides.

If your source material isn't in stereo, then you will need a chorus or slight delay in one channel to bring it out more before the stereo shaper.
PaulDassler
KVRist
 
110 posts since 18 Oct, 2010

Postby PaulDassler; Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:44 am

ouroboros wrote:yeah, compression is black magic, but I still think that sound is can be achieved with your tools. I will try and whip something up,, but it will be a while. In the meantime, try this -
get the sound basically how you want it,
then clone the channel in FL.
Send it to a different mixer channel.
On the new channel, place the FL Stereo Shaper on it and set it to "aSide" preset. This locates the side channel only. Now put your compressor on this channel to squash it. It might bring more presence on the sides.

If your source material isn't in stereo, then you will need a chorus or slight delay in one channel to bring it out more before the stereo shaper.


Thanks!
Basically it is in stereo, but compared to the previous link it sounds awfull and weak. Especially with my headphopnes i realize my saws are out of place, very difficult to explain :/
TIMT
KVRist
 
428 posts since 7 Mar, 2009, from MerseySide/Stockholm

Postby TIMT; Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:03 am

Are you aloud to use powerful and mord fustang in the same sentence..i think flat would be a more apt description :)

As for the sound it sounds like to me he's abusing something similar to the multiband stereo imager/spreader thingy in ozone as most of his sounds apart from the drums are weak as piss in the middle (centre channel)(even more so in his latest ep).the clarity you describe is because most of the important central frequency information (low mids,hi mids) is spread into the stereo difference channels (sides) haas etc etc is what you want to be looking at.which i suppose some would attribute it to cleanliness but to me personally i think it just sounds phasey and weak when summed to mono.it's a matter of correlation with other sounds that makes other sounds seem "clean"using haas and shit is just in my opinion (when abused like this)a cheap option to perceived width and "cleanliness" in the mids

The actual synthesis of the sounds themselves is pretty simple moogy type timbres rather than supersaws and abused to high hell and back with multiband compression and probably some saturation aswell (pretty sure about the multiband compression)



TIMT
It's all about the chef not about the kitchen
PaulDassler
KVRist
 
110 posts since 18 Oct, 2010

Postby PaulDassler; Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:19 am

TIMT wrote:Are you aloud to use powerful and mord fustang in the same sentence..i think flat would be a more apt description :)

As for the sound it sounds like to me he's abusing something similar to the multiband stereo imager/spreader thingy in ozone as most of his sounds apart from the drums are weak as piss in the middle (centre channel)(even more so in his latest ep).the clarity you describe is because most of the important central frequency information (low mids,hi mids) is spread into the stereo difference channels (sides) haas etc etc is what you want to be looking at.which i suppose some would attribute it to cleanliness but to me personally i think it just sounds phasey and weak when summed to mono.it's a matter of correlation with other sounds that makes other sounds seem "clean"using haas and shit is just in my opinion (when abused like this)a cheap option to perceived width and "cleanliness" in the mids

The actual synthesis of the sounds themselves is pretty simple moogy type timbres rather than supersaws and abused to high hell and back with multiband compression and probably some saturation aswell (pretty sure about the multiband compression)



TIMT


When you say multiband compression and saturation, could you tell me how you would set the compression and which vst you normally use? I tried it but never had the feeling that it gets better :/
TIMT
KVRist
 
428 posts since 7 Mar, 2009, from MerseySide/Stockholm

Postby TIMT; Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:53 am

PaulDassler wrote:
TIMT wrote:Are you aloud to use powerful and mord fustang in the same sentence..i think flat would be a more apt description :)

As for the sound it sounds like to me he's abusing something similar to the multiband stereo imager/spreader thingy in ozone as most of his sounds apart from the drums are weak as piss in the middle (centre channel)(even more so in his latest ep).the clarity you describe is because most of the important central frequency information (low mids,hi mids) is spread into the stereo difference channels (sides) haas etc etc is what you want to be looking at.which i suppose some would attribute it to cleanliness but to me personally i think it just sounds phasey and weak when summed to mono.it's a matter of correlation with other sounds that makes other sounds seem "clean"using haas and shit is just in my opinion (when abused like this)a cheap option to perceived width and "cleanliness" in the mids

The actual synthesis of the sounds themselves is pretty simple moogy type timbres rather than supersaws and abused to high hell and back with multiband compression and probably some saturation aswell (pretty sure about the multiband compression)



TIMT


When you say multiband compression and saturation, could you tell me how you would set the compression and which vst you normally use? I tried it but never had the feeling that it gets better :/



Not really,no.

Trial and error? :)


TIMT
It's all about the chef not about the kitchen
paulc_dj
KVRist
 
315 posts since 11 Nov, 2005

Postby paulc_dj; Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:21 pm

Would be nice to give the OP a little helping hand, ie. a typical compression setting for the type of effect he is trying to get. OP, compression is black magic, I don't fully understand how it works its magic, but it does. There are plenty of tutorials on the web, try www.sonicacademy.co.uk for a free tutorial on compression, when you complete the free sign up.

:)
User avatar
tehlord
KVRAF
 
6796 posts since 22 Sep, 2008, from Windsor. UK

Postby tehlord; Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:25 pm

Honestly sometimes I think people use the word compression when they don't really know how something is put together. They also don't know how to use a compressor properly, so that must be the answer.

The saws are wide, and the sub layered underneath it is tricking you into thinking the sum of noise is bigger than its parts.

Then it's EQ.

Compression is used of course, but it's not THE answer.
TIMT
KVRist
 
428 posts since 7 Mar, 2009, from MerseySide/Stockholm

Postby TIMT; Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:37 pm

tehlord wrote:Honestly sometimes I think people use the word compression when they don't really know how something is put together. They also don't know how to use a compressor properly, so that must be the answer.

The saws are wide, and the sub layered underneath it is tricking you into thinking the sum of noise is bigger than its parts.

Then it's EQ.

Compression is used of course, but it's not THE answer.


I don't know who that is specifically aimed at but i think the use of multiband compression is quite blatant in any of the overly done fustang stuff (so that'll be near enough his whole catalogue...[coughs]).the 1st giveaway being the crossover like effect and the extremely upfront hi mids.you could get that with eq i suppose but it wouldn't bring up alot of that hi mid nastiness going on the moogy chord section without getting rid of what very little dynamics are probably available (possibly from the oscillators beating against one another as if it's got no envelope and is just sustained logically it wouldn't need compressing but i suppose you could be using the multiband compression more for character than for any technical reasons) i.e smashed multiband compression the whole thing sounds like it has been bussed to ozone and raped,repeatedly (am suggesting ozone as the haas like effect on the low and hi mids making them very phasey and hollow sounds very much like what happens when you abuse the stereo spread section of it.so, possibly the multiband compressor is from that aswell)

Compression may not be the be all and end all (it isn't at all)but in relation to getting a fustang-esque sound multiband compression is something he and alot of the "nu-generation" electro producers gravitate to


TIMT
It's all about the chef not about the kitchen
User avatar
tehlord
KVRAF
 
6796 posts since 22 Sep, 2008, from Windsor. UK

Postby tehlord; Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:38 am

TIMT wrote:
tehlord wrote:Honestly sometimes I think people use the word compression when they don't really know how something is put together. They also don't know how to use a compressor properly, so that must be the answer.

The saws are wide, and the sub layered underneath it is tricking you into thinking the sum of noise is bigger than its parts.

Then it's EQ.

Compression is used of course, but it's not THE answer.


I don't know who that is specifically aimed at but i think the use of multiband compression is quite blatant in any of the overly done fustang stuff (so that'll be near enough his whole catalogue...[coughs]).the 1st giveaway being the crossover like effect and the extremely upfront hi mids.you could get that with eq i suppose but it wouldn't bring up alot of that hi mid nastiness going on the moogy chord section without getting rid of what very little dynamics are probably available (possibly from the oscillators beating against one another as if it's got no envelope and is just sustained logically it wouldn't need compressing but i suppose you could be using the multiband compression more for character than for any technical reasons) i.e smashed multiband compression the whole thing sounds like it has been bussed to ozone and raped,repeatedly (am suggesting ozone as the haas like effect on the low and hi mids making them very phasey and hollow sounds very much like what happens when you abuse the stereo spread section of it.so, possibly the multiband compressor is from that aswell)

Compression may not be the be all and end all (it isn't at all)but in relation to getting a fustang-esque sound multiband compression is something he and alot of the "nu-generation" electro producers gravitate to


TIMT


I agree, but why is it always the main tool mentioned? There was even on post here suggesting that settings be given to the OP, but that he doesn't really know how to use them. Well, then don't suggest it then.

What about basic levels, EQ, sound choice (in this case a clean wide saw and a thick low sub?). That last one is the main criteria for the sound here imo.
TIMT
KVRist
 
428 posts since 7 Mar, 2009, from MerseySide/Stockholm

Postby TIMT; Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:16 am

tehlord wrote:
TIMT wrote:
tehlord wrote:Honestly sometimes I think people use the word compression when they don't really know how something is put together. They also don't know how to use a compressor properly, so that must be the answer.

The saws are wide, and the sub layered underneath it is tricking you into thinking the sum of noise is bigger than its parts.

Then it's EQ.

Compression is used of course, but it's not THE answer.


I don't know who that is specifically aimed at but i think the use of multiband compression is quite blatant in any of the overly done fustang stuff (so that'll be near enough his whole catalogue...[coughs]).the 1st giveaway being the crossover like effect and the extremely upfront hi mids.you could get that with eq i suppose but it wouldn't bring up alot of that hi mid nastiness going on the moogy chord section without getting rid of what very little dynamics are probably available (possibly from the oscillators beating against one another as if it's got no envelope and is just sustained logically it wouldn't need compressing but i suppose you could be using the multiband compression more for character than for any technical reasons) i.e smashed multiband compression the whole thing sounds like it has been bussed to ozone and raped,repeatedly (am suggesting ozone as the haas like effect on the low and hi mids making them very phasey and hollow sounds very much like what happens when you abuse the stereo spread section of it.so, possibly the multiband compressor is from that aswell)

Compression may not be the be all and end all (it isn't at all)but in relation to getting a fustang-esque sound multiband compression is something he and alot of the "nu-generation" electro producers gravitate to


TIMT


I agree, but why is it always the main tool mentioned? There was even on post here suggesting that settings be given to the OP, but that he doesn't really know how to use them. Well, then don't suggest it then.

What about basic levels, EQ, sound choice (in this case a clean wide saw and a thick low sub?). That last one is the main criteria for the sound here imo.


Am in complete agreement that some people consider compression some holy grail to get you "PHat soundz"and do not really factor in anything else. hence my somewhat half arsed reply when i was asked for specific settings (which always really confuses the shit out of me considering the extremely program dependable nature of compression itself.noob or not,it's not hard to suss that compression is very sensitive to program material kind of making it pretty obvious that specific settings aren't likely to work or give you desired results)

But,in regards to this particular sound and how to get within the ballpark multiband compression plays quite a big role in the dynamic of those sounds and how they bounce off one another.it's very likely that the subby,moog,pulse wave part has either been eq'd very smiley eq'ish (top,bottom,scooped low mids) to influence a compressor hence the very squashed sound that happens on the initial stage of each note..or, everything has been levelled through a multiband compressor (the relative balance of each sound influences the effect on the multi-comp) on a buss with exaggerated settings to give that particular dynamic when the more middy resonant sound comes in a couple of bars later

Am not really hearing a supersaw hear either. as in jp8000 esque supersaw.i,ve always known fustang (in this example aswell)to use moog type saw sounds playing triads or fifths playing the melody (it's also got a very slow low depth pitch modulation on it which gives it that pseudo vintage sound) and it's also very wide from haas like effects(the very phasey hollow sound in the mids and low mids is abit of a giveaway that it is not conventional detuning and unison or panning for that matter).

the fact it is also on the sub section also suggests to me that this has been applied on a buss and not on a sound by sound basis hence the assumption about ozone


TIMT
It's all about the chef not about the kitchen
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