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What is the problem with the reputation of SynthEdit?

Modular Synth design and releases (Reaktor, SynthEdit, Tassman, etc.)

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

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Numanoid
KVRAF
 
8619 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:43 am What is the problem with the reputation of SynthEdit?

I get this kind of feeling in many postings around the forum that because a plugin is made with SynthEdit "it is not good enough"

So how can that be, I'm very impressed with many plugins that I later have found out have been made with SynthEdit

Is it because it lacks 64 bit support, Mac support, or other such issues?
Halb Wesen und halb Ding
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
10012 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:48 am

Yeh, pretty much. But 64-bit is going to happen in due time, there's a beta out there. Mac support probably not quite yet.


It's going to be awesome when OP-X PRO II, Elektrostudio, etc., become native x64.
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Numanoid
KVRAF
 
8619 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:52 am

EvilDragon wrote:Yeh, pretty much. But 64-bit is going to happen in due time, there's a beta out there. Mac support probably not quite yet.


OK, so there is nothing inferior with it sonically? To me that is always the most important point.

I couldn't care less what is "under the hood", as long as it sounds good 8)
Halb Wesen und halb Ding
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FabienTDR
KVRian
 
586 posts since 23 Feb, 2012

Postby FabienTDR; Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:04 am

Numanoid wrote:OK, so there is nothing inferior with it sonically?


No, absolutely nothing. It uses exactly the same arithmetic/math as "hand-made" plug-ins. Synthedit is fine.

One small difference arises from the fact that classic hand-made plug-ins need very careful planing to keep the dev time within reasonable limits. This extra planing makes a difference in practice. Same is the case for the fact that most "true" programmers have to mess with very complicated low-level issues even for super simple processors: Most "non rapid prototyped" are usually better thought out from the beginning.

But really, it's easy to find horrible conventional plug-ins as well.
Fabien from Tokyo Dawn Records

Check out my audio processors over at the Tokyo Dawn Labs!
ostfront
Banned

Postby ostfront; Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:19 am

Numanoid wrote:I get this kind of feeling in many postings around the forum that because a plugin is made with SynthEdit "it is not good enough"


It's hard to know for sure how skilled the programmer was and how much effort and knowledge he put in such a plugin. There are heaps of half-baked SynthEdit creations. It is just a little more likely that a coded, paid-for plugin will be of better quality.
ENV1
KVRian
 
972 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:42 am

Numanoid wrote:
OK, so there is nothing inferior with it sonically?

No.

The notion that SE plugins are somehow inferior only because they are made with SE is complete rubbish and only exists in the mind of some people - probably the same people who think that a free plugin must be inferior to commercial plugins only because its author does not want any money from you. :nutter:


What is causing such nonsensical ideas should be obvious too. Bling-factor, peer-pressure, parroting due to not knowing better whilst not giving a damn about whether the repeated info is actually correct, these things are directly responsible for a lot of what is going on in the virtual gear realm. And nobody needs a degree in psychology to see that either. No bling-factor = no 'coolness' factor = dismissed no matter how good it may actually sound. Peer-pressure = millions of flies eat sh*t and they cant all be wrong. Ergo if everyone says that X stinks and Y is the best thing since sliced bread then it has to be true, ergo i better go with the flow or i risk becoming a societal outsider, or worse, being labeled a wierdo. Parroting = i have read it on the internet so now im informed. I have never actually bothered to check out whether the things that im repeating are actually correct, still i am qualified to state those things as facts because after all thats how theyre written in the forums.


Well, you get the picture. How far such self-deception can go with some people can be shown by using Elektrostudio as an example. As probably everyone knows, Robert uses SynthEdit to make his synths. This is, at least to some folks, generally bad - so bad in fact that they wouldnt touch a 'normal' SE plugin, i.e. one that uses stock oscs and filters, with a 10 feet pole. They do, however, like Roberts synths because Robert uses 'custom modules'. This is what makes Roberts synths 'different'. And this 'difference' is why they like Roberts SE plugins but not other SE plugins. The problem: None of Roberts custom modules appear to be oscillators or filters. On the contrary, if you check the module descriptions in the SEM files you will find that all of the ELSTUNxx modules exported by the DLL appear to be UI stuff, MIDI processing, animations, that sort of thing. In other words not related to sound generation AT ALL.

Talk about the powers of the psyche...
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Full Bucket
KVRist
 
164 posts since 25 May, 2010, from Hanau, Germany

Postby Full Bucket; Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:53 am

+1

Couldn't have said it better! :-)

Cheers Björn
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
21382 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:31 am

The SE framework provides some advantages, and some disadvantages, over native code, but it is just a rapid development environment; it neither precludes nor prevents people from designing their own custom 'components', and the included, and third-party, components available are not inherently of poorer quality than any of the other generic code out there that frequently gets reused in natively-coded plugins. Some are provably superior.

Its easier to get results from SE, so easier for someone to get sub-par results. Its no harder to get exceptional results from than native code, though, if one is prepared to put in exceptional effort.

People dismiss SE because of the amount of relatively generic, relatively mundane work whch is produced in it. That misses two points. Firstly, I dont see what people get out of criticising someone trying to create; at least its better than doing nothing but criticise. Secondly, some exceptionally interesting experimental work has been produced with it which would not have been attempted or created otherwise. As per Reaktor, MAX, etc, people want to experiment with new ideas, and a tool which supports that is to be lauded.
Most negative attitudes towards SE seem to be entirely churlishness, an antipathy towards something for the sake of it. Would that most of those same people actually put as much effort and generosity into making and giving away their efforts as the worst of SE developers...

Its not perfect, it has flaws and inabilities, just like every other toolset. But it allows people to explore and express their creativity, like any other toolset. Can't really see a reason for the childish sneering at it of some folk, especially that rather specific set who are on OSX in the first place. I used to think musicians were creative types, but round here there's too many people think the 'wrong' choice of tools is what defines and delimits work.
To laymen, software development is something akin to wizardry. Neither time, nor effort are involved. If software is missing features they want, or has bugs, it is solely because someone has been too lazy to wave their magic wand.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
 
33618 posts since 25 Jan, 2003, from through the looking glass

Postby vurt; Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:45 am

i think a part of the issue is that a lot of people used it to make average and below average synths, this gave some people the impression that all synths using synth edit where poor. however, there where also many synth edit synth vendors who have created some amazing synths, krakli synths have been a favourite of mine for many years.
synth edit is a tool, how it is used by the developer is what counts imo :)
its like saying word is shite because some people who use it write shite :shrug:
ENV1
KVRian
 
972 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:20 am

vurt wrote:however, there where also many synth edit synth vendors who have created some amazing synths, krakli synths have been a favourite of mine for many years.

And dont forget TubeOhm.

Absolutely impressive stuff, all done in SE.

(He even gives a lot of it away for free.)



And theres SO many others who make/made outstanding stuff in SE.

Seriously, whenever i hear people whine about how 'bad' SE stuff is, all i can think of is how GLAD aspiring synthpop bands would have been in the late 70s / early 80s to have an instrument capable of only a FRACTION of what some of these SE creations can do. I mean those guys often had to make do with something like a Prodigy or an Odyssey, and that is ONE Prodigy or Odyssey, not 25 of them simultaneously. And still they have managed to make some of the greatest music ever. Imagine what these folks could and no doubt WOULD have done with one of the better featured polyphonic SE creations. And now it is considered not good enough?

People just seem so damn spoiled these days. The 'what do i use' seems to be infinitely more important to some people than the actual process of creating the music itself. Its crazy...
stixman
KVRist
 
134 posts since 22 Apr, 2012

Postby stixman; Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:46 am

SE plugins used to crash my computer which is why I avoided them but now I research the background of these plugins and pick out the best ones! choose well and they can be great!
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antto
KVRAF
 
2287 posts since 4 Sep, 2006, from 127.0.0.1

Postby antto; Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:52 am

vurt wrote:...
synth edit is a tool, how it is used by the developer is what counts imo :)
its like saying word is shite because some people who use it write shite :shrug:

exactly

synthedit gives every mortal human a chance to try and make his own synth, in a very modular fashion, that's how i started, i didn't know how to code
it was also the reason why i tried to learn C++ even tho i really didn't liked it, now i do not regret it

it's also a very easy way to try things which otherwise require much more time to code till you can test..

with some C++ knowlage on top of it, you can make quite complex synths
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!

irc.freenode.net >>> #kvr
mztk
KVRAF
 
2066 posts since 12 Jun, 2004

Postby mztk; Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:17 pm

'the reputation of synthedit'?!
you listen to that?
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Ichad.c
KVRian
 
687 posts since 8 Feb, 2012, from South - Africa

Postby Ichad.c; Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:45 pm

antto wrote:
synthedit gives every mortal human a chance to try and make his own synth, in a very modular fashion, that's how i started, i didn't know how to code
it was also the reason why i tried to learn C++ even tho i really didn't liked it, now i do not regret it



I like c++ - it just doesn't like me! Should really change my username to SegFault :oops:

But in all seriousness - the difference is just in the hands of the designer, even a good c++ programmer can make a dull/boring synth. There are a few technical niggles here and there - but the biggest one, IMHO, oversampling - is adressed in SE1.2; more oscillator choices would also great, for something called SynthEdit - there isn't alot of osc options available - but that's a minor issue - for most, :arrow: the more limitations you have - the more creative you need to get. :)
Also the SE community (over at yahoo) is also great -> recently made my first synth (after 7+ years of being an SE user) and it would have not been possible without the help of all the cool people there - and Jeff and Chris on the SDK group.
xoxos
Mr Entertainment
 
10601 posts since 29 Apr, 2002, from i might peeramid

Postby xoxos; Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:00 pm

A: we dis the competition.

now go forth and see kvr through fresh eyes.

this helps people to remember that good quality is not common, forget about everything that isn't good quality. just look at everyone around you and follow them. no one here ever told a lie.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha xoxos.net free vst. neither a follower nor a leader be
tagore "where roads are made i lose my way"
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