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Why are there no close to hardware native vst effects?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion

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resistent
KVRist
 
179 posts since 14 Apr, 2008, from Berlin

Postby resistent; Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:23 am Why are there no close to hardware native vst effects?

Why do you think is there a lack of good emulators and beyond of filter banks (e.g. sherman filterbank) and tape delays (e.g. Roland Space Echo). I mean there are a lot of software synthesizer, EQs and compressor which reaches almost the audible quality of analog gear. so why are almost no effects out there with similar audible qualitys?

Maybe it's again capitalism. A synth sells better than a good filter emu or an bbd or and delay or a really good ringmodulator. The world seems to consists of subtractiv Synths, eqs, compressor & channel emulation. A shame.

Maybe u-he change the game. With Sascha Eversmeier there is an outstanding fx-developer on board he has always good ideas an an imagination of how a fx has to work. Wait for the first plugins.
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excusemyenglish
Fred_Abstract
KVRist
 
268 posts since 27 Nov, 2009

Postby Fred_Abstract; Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:16 am

soundtoys stuff is decent when compared to good hardware but depends what you are after.
theodore_whitmore
KVRist
 
155 posts since 29 Jan, 2013

Postby theodore_whitmore; Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:37 am

Custom and practice is one factor. Producers have been happily using digital versions of analogue effects for something like three decades. I don't think there is a huge commercial pressure to create accurate digital emulations.

Sanity is another factor. Closely emulating a Sherman Filterbank in full flight, with FM, AM, saturation and dual filter resonance would likely use the kind of CPU resources that the best VA synths do in high quality mode. I can justify spending a CPU core on a lead sound that is right at the front of the mix but maybe not on an effect that even discerning listeners only notice in passing.
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thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
 
16489 posts since 27 Jul, 2005, from the wilds of wanny

Postby thecontrolcentre; Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:45 am

Coz no-one has bothered to emulate old fx boxes except for the odd guitar pedal. Maybe lack of demand too. Virtual fx are imho pretty good by comparison to much hardware.
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ariston
KVRAF
 
2831 posts since 28 Jun, 2009, from Wherever I lay my hat

Postby ariston; Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:48 am

Permut8, The Drop, ERS Dimension D, the Uhbiks, Pitchfunk, quite a few reverbs, AA Big Rock Phaser, Brainworx & SPL stuff (although not all of it), Studio Devil Preamp...

...what were you saying again?
electro
KVRAF
 
3305 posts since 5 May, 2002

Postby electro; Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:03 pm

The UAD platform may be of interest to the OP.
http://www.uaudio.com/store.html
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM
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resistent
KVRist
 
179 posts since 14 Apr, 2008, from Berlin

Postby resistent; Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:29 pm

Fred_Abstract wrote:soundtoys stuff is decent when compared to good hardware but depends what you are after.


Soundtoys are for me one of the most overrated plugins.
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resistent
KVRist
 
179 posts since 14 Apr, 2008, from Berlin

Postby resistent; Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:31 pm

ariston wrote:Permut8, The Drop, ERS Dimension D, the Uhbiks, Pitchfunk, quite a few reverbs, AA Big Rock Phaser, Brainworx & SPL stuff (although not all of it), Studio Devil Preamp...

...what were you saying again?


Won't denied that some of these plugins are great (beside the brainworx stuff). The Drop could maybe be a really good one - time will tell.
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User avatar
resistent
KVRist
 
179 posts since 14 Apr, 2008, from Berlin

Postby resistent; Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:32 pm

electro wrote:The UAD platform may be of interest to the OP.
http://www.uaudio.com/store.html


UAD sounds really cool but its not native. And also UAD dont always reach a good level.
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Ch00rD
KVRian
 
669 posts since 13 Dec, 2011

Postby Ch00rD; Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:39 pm

As this seems to be a spin-off from another thread, where I answered the OP's question, please allow me to double-post my reply here as well (I'll be glad to remove it in that other thread, if that would be considered more appropriate):

resistent wrote:Appendix: I wonder why there are fantastic close to hardware synths like Diva, UN-O-LX, etc. but no decent emulation of old effect hardware. I think a good sounding filter is hard to programm as well as a good pitchmodulation, or?

Maybe it's again capitalism. A synth sells better than a good filter emu or an bbd or and delay or a really good ringmodulator. The world seems to consists of (old boring subtractiv) Synths, eqs, compressor & channel emulation. A shame.


Edit: Maybe u-he changes again the game. With Sascha Eversmeier there is an outstanding fx-developer on board he has always good ideas an an imagination of how a fx has to work. Wait for the first plugins.

My answer to that would be, in one simple word: UAD.

For a 'good sounding filter', imho you have to look no further than the UAD Moog Multi-Mode Filter. Imho it can easily stand up to the Moog filter in Diva (and indeed, I've used it as such as well, routing Diva's oscillators through it), and its 'drive' may even make it sound better - subjectively, ymmv of course. In fact, that zero-delay feedback thing that contributes to the awesome sound of Diva's filter was implemented in UA's Moog plug-in a couple of years before u-he managed to pull off that trick.

So, imho, it's somewhat the other way around: while there were quite some really good software emulations of (analog) hardware effects, we used to have only a very few really good 'virtual analog' synth plug-ins before u-he "changed the game" with Diva.

Also, UA do not (yet!) have any synth plug-ins, while they are obviously making a lot of money (and have zero piracy, thanks to the custom DSP hardware used, it also effectively works somewhat like a 'dongle' protection). Which does make me doubt that the "capitalism" explanation submitted above is of much relevance here. I would counter that analog hardware gear and software emulations of such analog hardware are in general using sufficiently distinct technologies to warrant the presumption that having some sort of intellectual property on some analog technology (if it has not already expired, e.g. the infamous Moog filter patents) does not put the proprietor in any kind of position to block the development and marketing of any and all software emulations (except for usage of trade marks, but that is completely irrelevant to the sound).

As to pitch modulation, afaik it is usually done with digital means, and such effects could as such be released as software just as well, at least in theory - but in practice, perhaps the "capitalism" explanation does apply here, more generally, as it is still quite exceptional to see software versions of the exact same stuff that is (also) sold as hardware units, no matter if they are in the synth or effect category.

But, also, specifically to pitch shifting, some of the most popular hardware pitch shifting effects were produced by Eventide, and afaik some of its developers are now at SoundToys, and they're currently giving away a 'simple' pitch-shifting plug-in for free, which I bet is a teaser for a forthcoming more extensive pitch-shifting effect (like they did with Little Radiator at SXSW last year).

Bottom line: the quality of both effects and synths in software are continuously improved over time. :)
Ch00rD
KVRian
 
669 posts since 13 Dec, 2011

Postby Ch00rD; Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:48 pm

resistent wrote:
electro wrote:The UAD platform may be of interest to the OP.
http://www.uaudio.com/store.html


UAD sounds really cool but its not native. And also UAD dont always reach a good level.

Imho both observations are true, but not very relevant.

UA could probably release their algo's using 'native' code as well, but may have compelling reasons not to do so: they have zero piracy and lots of paying customers as it is. The fact remains that they have produced a number of emulations of (both analog and digital) hardware during the last decade.

(Some) UAD plug-ins may perhaps not be as good as the hardware they emulate, by whatever standard you choose to measure that, but the relevant question is whether such a discrepancy is and/or has historically been significantly greater for emulation of effects than synths, in particular for analog gear. I don't think it is / has been, generally speaking. YMMV, of course.
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
21397 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:50 am

would be nice to have a day go by without yet another thread flogging this particular equine corpse, just for a change.
To laymen, software development is something akin to wizardry. Neither time, nor effort are involved. If software is missing features they want, or has bugs, it is solely because someone has been too lazy to wave their magic wand.
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ZenPunkHippy
KVRAF
 
10365 posts since 18 Jun, 2008, from Melbourne, Australia

Postby ZenPunkHippy; Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:01 am

Pic or it didn't happen ...

Image
AKJ
KVRAF
 
1770 posts since 1 Mar, 2004

Postby AKJ; Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:26 am

it's rather the other way round.
kmonkey
KVRAF
 
3241 posts since 17 Aug, 2004

Postby kmonkey; Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:32 am

Ch00rD wrote: In fact, that zero-delay feedback thing that contributes to the awesome sound of Diva's filter was implemented in UA's Moog plug-in a couple of years before u-he managed to pull off that trick.



I am curious on how can you claim that about UAD implementing zero delay in their Moog filter? Never heard it before.

You do realize that whore "zero delay filter" idea was way before even uad moog filter?
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