rendered audio from midi out of sync in cubase and reaper

[tonytee335]

Hi

This is my first time in posting a message and the reason why I am doing so is because I have a serious issue with my digital studio that is causing me a lot of stress and has kind of brought my ability to record midi based music to a standstill. I'm hoping someone can help me.

I use Cubase 5, and I'm currently working on a track that is mainly all software synths, and I am now in the final stages of rendering the midi to audio. I was listening back to the project recently, and found that one of the tracks was glaringly out of time. When I zoomed in on the project, I was horrified to find that all of the waveforms that had been rendered from midi were all out of time, the first beat after the midi note, then the beats afterwards either in front of or after the midi note, drifting out of time inconsistently as the track moves forward.

I'm pretty sure this is not due to general latency problems, because the midi track is in time upon playback, but when I render it to audio using all the
methods available, real time export/normal export using export audio mixdown, sending the midi to a group track, recording from that, and recording directly from the stereo outs, the same thing happens, whether it be mono/stereo, 44,48khz, 16,24,32 bit.

Over the last few weeks, I have spent my time tearing my hair out trying to find what the problem is only to be completely stumped. I have looked through pages and pages of forums trying to find the answer, and tried just about everything suggested within Cubase; increasing/decreasing buffer size, checking and unchecking system timestamp options, constrain delay compensation, moving the Cubase application folder, none of which have solved the problem.

At first I thought it was specific software synths, namely Arturias Minimoog, Jupiter 8 and Pro VS. The Minimoog was the track that was glaringly out of time, so I contacted Arturia Tech support, I even sent them test Cubase projects with the rendered audio. They didn't respond, and I gave up after several attempts. But then I found that all of the software synths were exhibiting the same problem, and the weird thing was the timing would change each time the tracks were rendered. Kontakt 5 seemed to be the most stable of the 3rd party synths, and the rendered audio would be delayed using the Cubase synths, but consistently, so moving the waveform would mean it was in time. So I thought maybe reinstalling the third party software synths to a different location might work, but it didn't.

Then I thought it's either got to be the computer I'm using, the audio interface, or a problem with Cubase itself. I tried doing a fresh install with nothing on each computer(so there were no possible conflicts with other software) using different versions of Cubase SX2, 4 and 5 on four different computers; An old Pentium pc with an Maudio delta 2496 soundcard installed, A Packard Bell Imedia x2416 pc with an Maudio delta 1010LT soundcard, and the laptop I had been using on the project, A Scan 3XS ADK 7600 with an Maudio Fast Track Ultra. I also tried updated all of the drivers for the soundcards.

None of this resolved the problem.

I then thought it might be a problem with the Maudio products/drivers and possibly The USB connectivity, so I got a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 firewire audio interface. It didn't resolve the problem. I tested the audio interface in the shop where I bought it from, Production room in leeds, and discussed it with two of their staff who were also completely stumped.

Finally I got a Scan powerdaw SAX-6, and even with the power of the pc, it didn't resolve the problem.

So I thought it has to be Cubase, so I contacted Cubase technical support and they suggested I downloaded the latest update (5.5.3) and when rendering to uncheck the box saying 'insert IXML chunk'. I did this and amazingly everything was in time after rendering, but then even more amazingly a few days later the problem started happening again. I restored a backup I made before the Cubase update was installed and it didn't change anything. I contacted them again and they just said it must be a problem with your setup, which is unlikely, because I've tried four different computers, with four different audio interfaces, with no other software on there, apart from the essential drivers. They've now distanced themselves from the issue.

I then downloaded an evalutation copy of Cockos Reaper and tried rendering from inside that, and was surprised to find the exact same thing happened. I then tried to record audio from Cubase to Reaper using the loopback facility on the Pro 40, and it still didn't resolve the problem. I even tried recording the audio out of the interface into a digital 8 track using rca spdif and then back again, and the exact same thing happened.

Its bizarre because when I try to set hitpoints and slice the audio after rendering, or quantize audio, it doesn't quantize up to the start of the waveform, theres always a gap between the slice and the start of the waveform. It's as if the display isn't accurate, or something's happening in the render that is adding an inconsistent gap or pulling the audio forward. It could be a problem with the waveform display, but after having this problem for several weeks and listening over and over again, it's hard to be subjective about whether the track sounds in time, and I've lost confidence in my setups ability to keep time completely. I'm having to cut the audio up manually and physically move it to the beat, which as you can imagine, is extremely time consuming, and when the notes glide into each other, or if there is filter modulation, its a nightmare.

I've run out of ideas and I'm hoping someone can help. Any advice would be most gratefully appreciated.

Anthony

[SaganTech]

Can you post a MIDI file of the problem sequence with the soft-synth track assignments?

[V'ger]

Or the Reaper project file.

[tonytee335]

Hi

Thanks very much for your replies, I really appreciate it. I've decided to do a complete fresh install of all my software on the PC and laptop, installing the sound libraries of the software synths to a separate location than the VST plugins file, just to see if that makes any difference. Once I've completed that, I will post Cubase and Reaper projects with the software synths assigned.

Many thanks

Anthony

[5Lives]

That's MIDI for you. I've noticed the same thing in Logic - MIDI jitter is real. Using Vienna Ensemble Pro with Pro Tools 10 has limited it for me, but it is still there.

[tonytee335]

Hi

Thanks to everyone who's commented on this issue.

I've spent the last few days testing again and I'm completely out of ideas. I haven't sent any files over because I didn't want to waste your time. The reason why is because I've tried four computers, four audio interfaces, two PCI, one usb and one firewire, I tried a demo version of Pro Tools 10, thinking it could be a problem with the VST protocol, but the same thing happened with the RTAS version, so thats Cubase SX2, 4, 5, and 6.5 (demo), Reaper and Pro Tools all exhibiting the same problem, three different DAWs, and every plugin I've tested bar one (TAL Noisemaker, ironically the only freeware synth I've tested) has not only had timing issues when rendering but the waveforms are different each time I render. I was about to compile some files to send off to each plugin manufacturer to ask them for help and advice, but I rendered some audio from an external synth the other day, an SY85 and the exact same thing happened. It just doesn't make sense.

I'm kind of going round in circles, I haven't made any music for months and as you can imagine I just want to get back to doing that now, even if it means cutting the audio up note by note and dragging it in time. The most frustrating thing about this is that for a short period of time everything worked after I installed the Cubase 5.5.3 update.

Thanks very much for all your time and help anyway.

Kind regards

Anthony

[jancivil]

you need to lose the idea this is down to something wrong with the tools. EG: "could be a problem with the VST protocol" - do you think everyone has such a fundamental problem? You've crossed the border into the land of absurdity.

I have dozens of projects where audio rendered-from-midi has to match *perfectly* - which is to say not just on time but vis a vis microscopic differences of time (and my Cubase preference is the full-on 4000 ppqn: I NOTICE) - with active midi. over and over again, I proceed with no worry.

midi jitter is real, but that is not going to be a problem with the host, it is going to appear via a connection with something external (eg., VE Pro is jitter-free itself.). You have something more wrong than that. I have NO idea what problem occurs on your setup but as described it is anomalous, aberrant and bizarre. At this point I don't know if this is so basic as you don't know you're snapping to bars and you can't move it freely. But it's not Cubase, it's not the other host, it's not vst, it's at your end.

[tonytee335]

Your post is rude, and completely unneccessary. I signed up on his forum to get some help on a problem I have been experiencing for months and instead you feel you have to insult my intelligence. I am not a beginner, I have been producing music for over 20 years, starting from Cubase 2 on the Atari and a workstation synth, right through using samplers and now working inside the box. I have studied Music Technology and Production to HND level.

I love Cubase, it does everything I need, but I have tried everything I can think of, I have taken advice from everyone I have spoken to about this, I have been in communication with Steinberg technical support, individual plugin manufacturers, Sound on Sound, the audio interface manufacturers, I even went to a music shop where I bought one of the interfaces from, and actually showed them what I was doing, and they said it shouldn't be happening. The simple fact is the tools ARE causing the time issue, and it is not 'at my end'. Believe me I envy you if your projects are completely in time. I'm now looking at possibly having to drive the soft synths externally via my atari and if that doesn't work, having to slice up each beat of audio manually and drag it into time. As I said at the top, If you haven't got anything constructive to say, please do not bother. I have got more important things to do with my time.

[bazwillrun]

Let me get this right, after reading all of the above you have this problem with every and any setup, no matter what equipment/software you use, you re-install just about everything and still you have this problem.
It seems to vanish for a very brief time but then re-appears, you re-install, change swap around etc and its still there......

I'm not being rude but if this wasnt DAWs and audio but some other interest lets say video editing and you had a similar problem across all software and hardware, equipment, etc then there is only one logical conclusion, it must be with you, and something you are doing.

That would have to be the only logical conclusion to draw no matter what the interest was.

Same problem no matter what equipment setup you are using, what else is there ?

As i say i'm not trying to be rude but to my mind no special audio recording knowledge is needed here, because you seem to have answered the greater part of your problem, albeit not the part that solves the issue.

Have you tried some new projects from scratch and tested them by rendering at each step of the way ie: as you add parts and synths etc to try and eliminate that way.

what would happen if you started a new basic as simple as you can get one track project, one midi track synth and rendered it to audio, would that be. out as well ?

[tenshin111]

Not being rude as well but I have to agree with the above posts. It is clear that you are doing something wrong. You could post your Reaper project file here for example and I'm sure lots of folks would be willing to check it out and maybe come up with an answer to your problem.

[tenshin111]

Or just describe step by step what your doing.

Assuming that VST protocol is buggy or the plugins are all broken is just ridiculous.

[tenshin111]

It is also possible that you're sending out some kind of 'bad vibes' and anything you touch starts to misbehave [/joke]

[whyterabbyt]

Youve said it happens in Reaper too, so take the reaper project you were using, edit it to use a common freeware synth for the sounds (Synth1 or something) and post a link to it here. Far more people will be able to test it out if its done in Reaper with an easily available softsynth.

Then people will be able to confirm whether or not they see the same project behaviour you do.

[jancivil]

Your post is rude, and completely unneccessary.If you haven't got anything constructive to say, please do not bother. I have got more important things to do with my time.

What I said is completely constructive.

they said it shouldn't be happening. The simple fact is the tools ARE causing the time issue, and it is not 'at my end'

It can't be the fault of every tool and every machine. You're absent of reasoning there.

If you proceed under that type of assumption to this extent, you are wasting your and our time. You are presenting such a fundamental and extremely improbable issue, contradicting yourself in your telling of it (as though a reinstall fixed it for a bit and then it starts up again? Think_it_through.). Don't shoot the messenger.

You won't post a project file? do what whyte said and you'll find something out here; I think you don't want to see that no one can replicate this.

[tonytee335]

All I am looking for is some help. I have tested it with all my plugins installed, on a project that I have been working on for months, as well as a completely fresh install with no other software other than Cubase, one plugin and the necessary drivers for the audio interface. I have then uninstalled Cubase, installed reaper, then done the same with Pro tools, so basically its new project each time, one plugin, one DAW, no other software. The same midi notes, no controller messages, no modulation of any kind, quantized exactly to the beat. One plugin, TAL Noisemaker is bang on the beat, the rest completely out of time. Everything has been setup according to the relevant DAW manuals and my own experience.

The reason why I haven't posted a project is not because I don't want to sort the problem out, I am currently reinstalling the software in the same order that I can remember the last time it worked, I have and I am still doing everything that I can to rectify the problem. I'm quite happy to post Reaper and Cubase projects once this is done.

I don't know where you are all based, but I live near the Production Room in Leeds, UK which is the biggest retailer of Music Technology equipment in the country, and I spent a good two hours, discussing this with two of their staff, one who has been using Cubase for as long as I have. They have actually seen the problem demonstrated, and at no point did they say I was doing anything to cause the issue or there was a problem with my system, they offered constructive advice, not criticism. I also have a friend who is a software developer who I again spent several hours demonstrating the problem, and again at no point did he say there were any issues with the way I was working or my system. If that were the case, I'd actually be very happy, because then I could do something about it. My friend, before coming to see me, spent the morning looking through the Cubase forums and said there were people with midi to audio timing issues all over it. I found this within a couple minutes:-

https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=211592

I can completely understand the way it looks if you haven't physically seen what is going on, and believe me I am as shocked and frustrated about this as everybody else I have discussed it with, but you have to have an open mind and entertain the fact that I might be actually right. I'm even toyed with the idea of filming what I'm doing, and posting it, not to prove a point but just to sort it out. I'm going thin with all the hair I've pulled out.

Like I said I will post the projects once I have completed the reinstall on both my computers. I really appreciate any constructive help and advice. I am not being rude but anyone with negative comments who say I am wasting THEIR time; take responsibility for your own actions. You don't have to reply.