What is KVR Audio? | Submit News | Advertise | Developer Account

Options (Affects News & Product results only):

OS:
Format:
Include:
Quick Search KVR

"Quick Search" KVR Audio's Product Database, News Items, Developer Listings, Forum Topics and videos here. For advanced Product Database searching please use the full product search. For the forum you can use the phpBB forum search.

To utilize the power of Google you can use the integrated Google Site Search.

Products 0

Developers 0

News 0

Forum 0

Videos 0

Search  

Help!! Please! (instrument libraries)

Official support for: cantabilesoftware.com

Moderator: bradr

samuelclein
KVRer
 
4 posts since 12 Feb, 2013

Postby samuelclein; Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:35 pm Help!! Please! (instrument libraries)

Here's my scenario:

I am a musical theatre pianist. I recently obtained Cantabile in order to use my laptop as a MIDI controller for my keyboard, to use for patch changes during performance.

I have past experience with Mainstage, but I do not own a Mac. I have a high-quality PC laptop with enough guts to handle Cantabile during performance.
I am using 64-bit Windows 7 with 64-bit Cantabile.

I am a beginner when it comes to vst plugins.

Here's my question:

I need to find a basic instrument library to use during performance.
Every instrument library I look at is super specialized. Is there something that would contain, like, the 300-500 sounds that are built in to a Roland FP7 synth or similar?? Or something like the basic strings/winds/brass/orchestra/guitars/pianos/eps/organs/basses/worldinstruments etc for Mainstage?

Looking online, there are SO many products, and I don't even know what to CALL what I'm looking for. I'm not doing any sequencing, not using any virtual instruments, none of that stuff. Everything is so confusing.

I'm just trying to find a standard instrument library that covers all the bases. What do I do?

Can anyone help? I don't even know what to search for, or how to tell if a library works with Cantabile.

Thanks, Sam.
pinkcanaru
KVRist
 
193 posts since 6 Dec, 2005

Postby pinkcanaru; Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:00 pm

Hypersonic 2 might fit the bill
TiUser
KVRAF
 
2308 posts since 13 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby TiUser; Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:22 am

Probably you would be better off considering a HW sound module like Motif Rack or Rolands latest Integra 7.

Your need is IMHO why HW sound modules still sell.

As you still have found out many VST's target a special purpose - and may be better in the nice they fill (there is tons of crap too) - but take much more effort to manage.

When you play live it depends on the situation if all the detail VST's can provide and that is important for studio production does really pay back on stage too.

You have also to keep in mind that you need some basic knowledge of mixing and mastering to get good live sound. To a certain degree HW sound modules already offer this. They may be less flexible for sound engineers but may make you getting started much faster.

Especially for players PC and VST technology can introduce problems that may be time consuming to resolve.

Well, it's not impossibe but usually spontanuosly dialing in some sounds and play - like you can do with for instance a theatre organ or an entertainer keyboard - is still less comfortable at best.

I tell you all this even if I like Cantabile a lot... and think it's one of the best VST hosts for life use.
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
samuelclein
KVRer
 
4 posts since 12 Feb, 2013

Postby samuelclein; Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:40 pm

Thank you so much for the advice.

After researching, I gathered that the HW sound module IS a good idea, yes... just a bit out of my price range.

I found Hypersonic 2, and was also pleasantly surprised that Cantabile has jbridge built-in, so it worked and it's perfect! Thank you!!!

Yes, a lot of the patches are cheesy... but my next show is Avenue Q, so that's OK. =) Next time I have to pretend to be a full string section in a Rodgers and Hammerstein show, I'll look into getting more specific orchestral sounds.

-Sam
pinkcanaru
KVRist
 
193 posts since 6 Dec, 2005

Postby pinkcanaru; Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:58 pm

Halion Sonic should have been my first recommendation
Much more sophisticated library - based on Yamaha Motif and ,in fact, co- developed by Yamaha.
Once you have an instrument like that setup (and you can use several instantiations simultaneously) then supplement with some of absolutely excellent and relatively inexpensive plugins by companies like GSI with their superb VB3 Hammond and Rhodes emulations.

I take a rather different view to TIUser. I think the time for realistic use of a laptop running plugins is here. The discipline required is to try and separate casual use of the computer from professional (read, ' live use where real time targets simply HAVE to be reached' ) by, at the very least, dedicating a setup to real time music production only.

Although the counter argument runs that computers are trying to do all kinds of little jobs in the background which makes it difficult to impossible to guarantee real time performance, I think that point of view has become anachronistic. Computers are now fast enough to handle essential background tasks and give performance possibilities that exceed dedicated hardware.

Use a modern laptop with lots of RAM and SSD and you may have the best rig under your arm you ever had - without a hernia.
TiUser
KVRAF
 
2308 posts since 13 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby TiUser; Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:21 am

Well, guess I'm misunderstood in some way.

I don't really favour HW or PC+SW - I just want to remember we have the choice and both have strengths and weaknesses.

For short I think unwrapping a HW module or workstation, hooking that up and playing right away is way faster business than creating a PC+SW setup, learining about the technical traps (especially for live use) and the additional audio engineering aspects. I don't say HW sound modules or workstations provide you with the very best studio quality sounds but for live performance these nuances too often get lost too... on the other hand there's ton's of crap VST's around too and sorting stuff out isn't a quick business either.

Technically you got me right that win PC's do nor control neither contract any resource management in musical terms. This might be a practical non issue on modern machines but theoretically it is an unsolved problem you can't discuss away. HW always takes load away from a PC based system. Dedicated PC based systems (not using windows) could use the indeed massive computing power we have at hand today much better. But I admit that's tech view and not very practical from musical view.

Indeed I have some special view on all the stuff - as my personal dream is a kind of modern "organ" that can do everything instantly. I know that this is dificult and nor HW neither PC+SW perfectly provide what I dream of. It's also true that one can work around some problems. Just my point is systems should be intuitive as I prefer to spend my time on music making rather than configuring more than musically necessary...

...and while I dream on I hardly make any music and deal with resolving (and even writing my own software) to come closer to the type of instrument I dream of... :oops:

Oh and BTW :tu: for VB3... the most rocking organ plugin available today! So good that its technology is incorporated in a HW organ made by Farfisa. :wink: VB3 is one of the plugs on my list - when I have some bucks to spend on music stuff again... :oops:
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
 
2866 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:34 am

Another one on HALion Sonic. Hypersonic 2 is an old plug-in, and may cause you some trouble in modern operating systems. But if you already bought it, you have an upgrade path to HALion Sonic. Get informed at www.steinberg.net
Another one that has great sounds, and is a bargain right now is Dimension Pro.
Fernando (FMR)
samuelclein
KVRer
 
4 posts since 12 Feb, 2013

Postby samuelclein; Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:05 am

Yeah, Hypersonic 2 is actually giving me some trouble. Crashing a lot, which is kind of understandable. I'll need to go another route; I'm looking into both Halion Sonic and Dimension Pro now, thanks! Please continue with suggestions or ideas =)
User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
 
2866 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:15 am

Digital Sound Factory has on sale the entire Proteus collection: https://www.digitalsoundfactory.com/e-mu-proteus-pack
I'm not sure how these will compare with nowadays libraries nowadays, but they sounded great in the 80s. You would need to have Kontakt though (or if you have Dimension Pro, I think they also have a version in that format).
Another option would be the libraries from UVI: http://www.uvisoundsource.com/composer- ... p/cPath/13
They have a very good generic library (Plugsound Pro), and some others that complement this very well (fantastic acoustic pianos, electric pianos, organs, synths, the fairlight, etc.). The player is free.
Fernando (FMR)
TiUser
KVRAF
 
2308 posts since 13 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby TiUser; Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:04 pm

Here we are... Hypersonic crashes, so try Halion... or maybe preuteus stuff fron the 80ties? What about the biggies in orchestral sound?...

I also never understood how a player can use a dozen keyswitches during performance...

I don't want to sound offensive and I really appreciate all discussion but I think that's exactly the path it goes when using a PC and plugins... it's nothing ready to play - great to experiment with for recording but time consuming for a live player, maybe ok for larger productions...

:oops:
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
 
2866 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:35 pm

TiUser wrote:Here we are... Hypersonic crashes, so try Halion... or maybe preuteus stuff fron the 80ties? What about the biggies in orchestral sound?...

I also never understood how a player can use a dozen keyswitches during performance...

I don't want to sound offensive and I really appreciate all discussion but I think that's exactly the path it goes when using a PC and plugins... it's nothing ready to play - great to experiment with for recording but time consuming for a live player, maybe ok for larger productions...

:oops:

Come on, what PC hurted you? Hardware also fails, and if we can experiment with PCs it's because there are LOTS of alternatives, and they are stupidly cheap, when compared with the price of a SINGLE hardware unit. The Roland Integra 7 you suggested is a good piece, but costs 1500 euros. For that price, he buys a good computer, a good audio interface, and may buy HALion Sonic and Dimension Pro, the Proteus library, and probably still spare money. In three years, he changes some parts of his computer, and has a new machine, where he can still run his software (only better and more). If he buys the Integra, he will have a<n obsolete and discontinued piece of gear that woirths a third of the price he paid for.
And software is not as unstable as you wnat to make eople here believe. Actually, if the system is taken good care, it can run pretty smooth. He is having problems with Hypersonic 2 because it's an old software, no longer supported, but he can upgrade to HALion Sonic, which is better, for a small amount of money, and those problems will probablyu disappear.
Fernando (FMR)
TiUser
KVRAF
 
2308 posts since 13 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby TiUser; Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:33 am

I'd probably should have added another :wink:

I have really no preferences - no fuel for any "which approach is better" discussion. I just see differences here and there. As I said, both approaches have advantages and weaknesses.

HW can fail and PC's can. That's not my point.

I'm more about usage scenarios and effort.

But if you throw in price and the Integra7 for example, lets look a bit closer. First of all I do not own one so I can just qoute on material found on the net, like demo videos, audio examples, tutorials and so on. What you get is a luxury GM/GS soundset, some new super natural stuff and 12 integrated sound libraries which might be a bit dated but are still quite usable. Here the first detail I personally do not like: You have to chose and load libraries, up to 4 from the 12 and with GM/GS this takes all the 4 slots - as far as I understand. However you get 128 voices for granted, no overload to be monitored and no crackles. You get also useful mixing structure capable of surround sound an a working audio interface. Midi interfaces from Edirol are also excellent.

With a PC you have to pierce bits and pieces. As you say - it's some experimentation in it. The point here is not that it does not work, the point is it takes time to make it work. That's even for things we didn't spend much thought about in the past. Midi interfacing worked, audio out was analogue and worked. Now we have to find a midi interface that works with our PC HW (or a usb driver). We have to find a audio interface that meets our needs and again drivers that work well (not to mention that there are better ant less well working solutions). Then you need to choose a live host. Again this is some "experimentation" or at least a learning curve. Finally there are indeed many VSTi's - but not all work with any host like many people think. Cantabile does here a remarkable job but still you have sometimes to find that a plugin you like does not run for instance with multiprocessor support (and believe me there are some more technical differences behind the scene that are less obvious and probably not showing up)

Don't tell me original midi is a bottleneck when it comes to multi channel sequencing - I know this. But Windows plug and play usb drivers don't work any better.

Again - I do not favour HW sound modules or PC+SW, but when you compare which one is easier to get started to make a sound the difference is obvious.

I do not say a word about HW or PC stability. Just it's more likely you will find a VST that might trouble. If you have just good ones - no problem here.

Don't tell me that PC's don't lose value and keep up to date... that's a tale too. As a good audio PC should be optimized for audio it is finally transformed into a dedicated HW device. Plugins do also outdate, maybe not as fast as PC's but within the whole software lifetime cycles. For good sample based VST's you can spend endless amounts of money too. It's again here nor the final cost neither if it works or not but the effort to keep it running and up to date.

To conclude, all I want to say is be aware of choices! PC+SW is one choice, workstations and HW sound modules is another. There is even a mixture like access virus that combines the bad of both worlds, HW module and firmware upgrades... LOL :hihi:

All I can and want to do is showing options. I can not decide for other people and I don't want to. All I want is that people broaden their viewing angle to make a choice that is a good match to their needs. A dedicated PC+SW is one choice...
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
samuelclein
KVRer
 
4 posts since 12 Feb, 2013

Postby samuelclein; Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:33 am

I am pretty proud of myself that I have actually been able to understand and follow most of the points y'all are making. =) I think the difference of opinion regarding reliability during performace is very interesting, and I can still see both sides.

Personally, I have to factor in a few other things. First, I don't require as much detailed patch creation/altering abilities as many do. That would be the kind of thing I would subcontract out to someone who does THAT for a living, if I needed a lot of custom sounds. Also, I am a musical theatre pianist and conductor; and while I certainly make enough to live comfortably, I don't make rock star money... a $1500+ investment in a sound module is something I'd have to think carefully about, and in fact couldn't even afford at some points during the year.

In the end, BECAUSE I am fine with mostly using "stock" samples, I really want to research and look into getting one of the modules you mentioned before. However, I can't afford that right now, so I'm just trying to make Cantabile work for my purposes. I've already tried a few plugins and had trouble with some of them. Dimension Pro is working great so far. Keeping my fingers crossed that it will continue to do so!

Any continued thoughts are always appreciated! Some of this stuff is a little over my head, but I've learned a lot in the last week already.

-Sam
User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
 
2866 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:12 pm

The E-Mu Proteus Pack of Digital Sound Factory sale will last for two more days. It will cost you only 69,00 USD. For that price you will get 3.500 sounds, that cover almost every kind and genre. It has a version for Dimension Pro too. If you make your mind until then, take a look at it. I think it's worthing.
Fernando (FMR)
TiUser
KVRAF
 
2308 posts since 13 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby TiUser; Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:04 am

Hi.

@samuelclein

It's better to do some research before jumpung on any train.

If you had asked for single instruments like piano, e-piano, organs and the like there are really nice VST's. Just running one is also checked out quickly and usually no performance problen on a not too old PC. Especially the non sample based ones are interesting as they behave more like the originals. Sampling is always a bit static and overcoming this is often done by uge libs that are IMHO hard to play live from a performers view.

When it comes to a "basic" all purpose lib it's getting really difficult IMHO. I share your opinion that there is a lot of specialized stuff out and as a consecquence to get some of that can really become even more expensive than a sound module. Of course HW isn't cheap either and I myself would think triple if this is what I need...

Besides I'd like to add the suggestion to experimemt with free software. This just takes time... and there is even Cantabile Lite for free... http://www.cantabilesoftware.com/lite/

Finally I'm always sceptical when it come to sampling libs sampled from sampler sound modules or workstations. These instruments do not simply play back samples that can be sampled but have more or less synth capabilities too to make the basic libs sound a bit more livelike. Again it needs tweaking to make this material sound better, adding effects is one option. Here the sound engineering aspect comes into play...

A simple organ sound may be boring dry but pimped up with some tasteful distortion and right leslie the same basic sample may be a killer sound. Some stuff needs realtime effects - it's impossible to sample the transition from slow to fast rotary spinning.

In all is a lot of detail and HW as well as PC+SW can share similar weaknesses here.

Another important point for a live performer is how fast sounds can be switched - not to mention seamless changes. I am a bit mad about this as HW as well as PC+SW usually needs special programming tricks to make that happen as good as possible. Actually there is hardly any solution that makes this process worry free. Some sampers do but mosth synths do not, at least interrupting sounds.

But there we are in the field where not HW neither PC+SW is great IMHO... :oops:
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
Next

Moderator: bradr

Return to Topten Software