Hey, sorry for the few posts in theory lately i'm just really getting to grips with it at the moment,

Anyway my last question for now is,

I'm now coming to the terms that these big chords you hear in trance/ progressive tracks are mostly 3 note simple chords but are stacked in a way they harmonise and create a really nice big feeling, also the progression is what makes them sound unique,

Anyway, in my piano lessons we haven't covered chord theory yet, we've covered scales/ arpeggios ( i understand arpeggios are basically chords split up in to notes)

What my question is, i am studying MIDI files from tracks that inspire me, and take for example this avicii track,

The notes start off D#, F#, D#,B then progress to the next chord which is B, C#, A#, the next is G#,B, F# but then on the next chord is B, G# and E,

Now what confuses me is that E, I was assuming the key of the track was D# Minor, because the root note of the first chord is D# & it contains the notes which i have learnt from the arpeggios which make up the minor chord

Anyway to my understanding now, scales have nothing to do with chords, so i'm forgetting all my knowledge on scales for this topic, but what i want to know is, where do the extra notes for each chord come from? Are there rules beyond the standard triad (C, D#, G for example C minor), where do you find the notes that come after that that you can fit,

I was learning great until i hit that E, because it is only one semitone above D#, which seemed very odd to me, i also see a lot of chords with notes that are 2 semi tones above the root and what not

It could be a key change, or it could be that the chords are not in D# minor, i'm confused with it at the moment

Anyway any advice/ light shed would be much appreciated!

Mike

I don't know and haven't listened to the track you mentioned.
However, the notes you listed all come from B major (or G# minor). - That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be one of those keys, it could be, or it could be modal, or one or more of the chords could be chromatic. - It depends on the context; you need to work out what sounds like "home".



The first chord doesn't always give you the key. Often pieces start with chord V for example, and many modern pieces can pretty much start on anything. A better indication is the chord the piece ends on, but even then this is not a guarantee of the key. - You need to look at the notes in the piece, and, as I said, where the "home" is.

Incidentally, D#-F#-B is not a D# chord, but a chord of B major. If D# is the lowest sounding note, the chord is in first inversion.



C minor is C-Eb-G. The Eb normally sounds the same as D#, but it's important you spell things correctly. I wouldn't even start with more complicated chords until you have mastered basic triads like this. - Don't run before you can walk.

All this is covered in my Introduction to Music Theory, and I suggest you read either this, or some other beginner's theory text. Otherwise, with such a general topic, the replies you get on a site like this are likely only to confuse you and, in the long term, do you more harm than good.

Thank you very much for the reply,

I read your post on music theory the other day, it's amazing, although at the time i wasn't researching chords and so i mustn't have read that part, i will read over now

Yeah i totally agree with not running before i can walk, i have the same perspective, however just a question, although i labelled it wrong, i do know every arpeggio, and can play them coherently, although i am not 100% familiar with the naming of some of the chords, does this not mean i know all the basic triads and i am ready to move on to more complex chords?

I don't know personally hence why i ask

Thanks again

Mike

Without knowing you, I really cannot say.
You're certainly doing the right thing by learning your scales and arpeggios. Although boring, they will help you enormously later on.

But understanding "harmony" is a lot more than simply knowing where to put your fingers on the keys. Creating interesting chord progressions with smooth voice leading can be a complicated thing to master. If you want to do it well, there's lots of things to deal with.

I would advise starting by harmonising (basically, adding chords) to an existing melody. - Something simple like Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star (for example).

Initially, you might like to confine yourself to Primary Triads in root position, then adding (first) inversions, then secondary triads, then unessential notes - and so on, bit by bit a step at a time.

For best results, you should find a teacher to help you improve. - Perhaps your piano teacher might be willing to offer some assistance?

And getting a good textbook on the subject will also help; I recommend Four-Part Harmony. It's expensive, but you can get it half price if you agree not to photocopy it. That should contain everything you need.

If you feel you're ready, then by all means start experimenting with sevenths (perhaps just the Dominant Seventh to begin with), but take things slowly, and don't give up if you don't get great results straight away.

It does depend of course on what your overall goal is. If this is just a hobby and you're only ever going to play to yourself and the computer, then you can get away with doing whatever you like. But if it's more serious, and you're going to be working with other musicians (now or in the future), then it pays to understand the "correct" language and such forth.

confusion such as "assuming the key of the track was D# Minor, because the root note of the first chord is D#" indicate you don't quite know the basic triads, which means you can't have the arpeggios of them sussed; "although i labelled it wrong, i do know..." The 'label' is the name of the chord! This isn't trivial.

D# is not the root of that chord. B is the root. So you have a fundamental problem you need to suss before you move on to 'more complex chords'.

Here's the thing. Avicii is in all likelihood a 'naive' writer, guessing as he goes. There's nothing wrong with that through itself, but chances are these choices are going to be a challenge to fit into the kind of thing JJF is about in those pages (such as 4-part writing in a classic style, according to coherent principles).

In any case, first you're going to have to be able to recognize the chord. EG: D# F# B is a reordering, an inversion of B D# F#. Note well the order of letter names (spelling of): every other letter = thirds. F# to B is a fourth; D# F# B can't be a D# chord. You need a third from F#, A or A# for instance for that to be true.

(C Eb G is what Cm looks like, a triad, made with thirds, every other letter name. C to D# is a second. This is not trivial.)

Perhaps you can see these are not triads? We'll have to guess at what was on the guy's mind (and I'm not going to care); at this point the work you're asking after from strangers on the internet is something you should have a real teacher for.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total

@JJF, thanks for the reply, shed a lot of light for me anyway so thanks for that!

@Jancivil, few things, firstly thanks for the reply, secondly i think you make life difficult for yourself, most of the replies i've seen you write you seem to go on this big speel as if you are challenging somebody in court or something. Let me guess you write a lot of dis chorded music just to be alternative?

Not but serious, the track is a remix for admin van buuren, same chords from him, he's written i don't know how many albums i don't think he is a naive writer. Also where you quoted me on the writing of the triad chords, you completely took that out of context and put your own negative view on it, if you read the post properly you will notice i am not on about them chords, you can clearly see i understand them, read a few more words on and you will see it's the E note that i am challenging, but i think your over complex negative mindset saw an opportunity to pounce,

Never the less i appreciate your reply, and i suppose your directness to the subject helps probably a little more too, i understand what i need to practise now

Thanks again

Mike

Leading on from my original post..

My initial question was to find out the notes of each chord, like i have been doing with scales, just know what notes make up each major and minor chord and then i can go about being creative with those notes to create chords that fit my music

However from further research i can see there is such things like diminished etc. So would that mean that when i am writing progressive trance music, that it isn't just a case of major or minor, but a case of a whole lot more of options?

Or are the diminished etc. chords derived from major/ minor just using the notes that make up that chord in a different way..

I guess to sum it up, is it possible, instead of learning each individual, diminished, triad etc. to just learn the notes that can go in to a major or minor and use that as i please?

Or is it a case of you could have any note per major or minor key it depends what type of chord you are playing in that key?

I hope that makes sense, and once again i appreciate any light shed

Thanks!

There are four different types of triads; major, minor, diminished and augmented.
(Once you get into sevenths, there are still even more types - this is one of the reasons I said concentrate on triads first).

Nobody expects you to memorise every single possible chord. Instead, it's important that you know how to work them out. In time, as you get more experience, this process will become natural to the point where you don't even need to think about it (and you will naturally remember the more popular chords along the way).

It's like when you're learning to read, you don't memorise every single word in the dictionary! - In fact, there are hundreds of words that almost nobody uses; just like there are certain chords which almost nobody uses. But, when you come across one you don't know, it's important that you know how to work out what it is (or, at least what it could be).

So, what makes the triads different is the intervals between the notes. Or, to put it another way, how many semitones there are between each note.

Again, this is covered in my Introduction to Music Theory, but perhaps this alternate way of explaining might help:

Consider this table:
Each * across the top is one semitone apart from the next.


            *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Major       x           x        x
Minor       x        x           x
Diminished  x        x        x
Augmented   x           x           x


As you can see, the major triad consists of 4 semitones followed by 3. The minor triad is 3 then 4, the diminished is two lots of 3, and the augmented is two lots of 4.
(In this context, 4 semitones make a major third, 3 semitones make a minor third).

Now, here's the crucial point: This pattern is the same no-matter what note you start on.
So play any note on the piano. Now play a note that is 4 semitones higher than that one. Now play a note that is 3 semitones higher than the one you've just played. Play all three notes together and you've got a major triad.

You should also notice for example that a minor triad is the same as a major triad, but with the middle note (the third) lowered by one semitone. A diminished triad is just a minor triad with the top note (the fifth) lowered by one semitone, and an augmented triad is just a major triad with the top note (the fifth) raised by one semitone. For example, once you know the triad of G major, you should be able to work out the triads of G minor, G diminished and G augmented just by applying the pattern.

Recognising these patterns is much more important than memorising the notes of every single chord in existence (and will save you a lot of time!)

There are other patterns too; ways to "cheat" if you like.
For example, if you stick purely to the notes of any major key, then a triad built using the 7th note of that key as the root is always going to be a diminished triad. (For example, B-D-F in C major). Again, this works on any and all major keys.

Likewise, triads built on the first, fourth or fifth notes of major keys are always major triads, and those built on the second, third and sixth notes are always minor.

Of course, nobody is going to force you to use diminished or augmented triads. You can make perfectly good music that doesn't. (In fact, you'd be surprised how harmonically simple a lot of well-known songs actually are). But if you use one in the right way, at the right time, it can be a very powerful effect. - That's the kind of stuff that music theory can help you with, and perhaps make you stand out from the crowd.

I would recommend you to read "Music Theory for Computer Musicians" and "Harmony for Computer Musicians", both by Michael Hewitt - afterwards you'll know more than enough about all sort of chords, and it's written very well and understandable...

Of course, this isn't meant to replace practice, but having a good book at your side can help you if you want to look up something quickly without reading through loads of posts.

OT, but you want to be careful with how you're spelling your chords. D# and Eb aren't completely interchangeable. Spell your C chords with E. You'll find, as you get more used to analyzing pieces, that readability is very important, and you don't want to have to start transposing a bunch of chord tones in your head every time. C minor appears in flat keys, so use a flat to write it.

Minor workflow tip, is all.

Dude, I am taking time trying to give you the best information and knowledge I can. Not only asking people to work for you for free, you're going to be this arsey? Reading over what I typed trying to understand what offended you, I can't see it. I'm making what hard for myself? Stow the attitude and make it easier for yourself, in order to learn. I'm not the one needing help.
I indicated an error where there was one in order to address it. I did not expect you to get bent out of shape about it. There is no mistake or 'taking out of context' in what I indicated to you about what you did. EG: You called a B major chord a D# chord. We make mistakes in the beginning; there is no shame in it. There is no reason to be dodgy, to try and make your mistake not a mistake*.

Good luck. You should pay someone like you're in all likelihood paying a piano teacher, get a coherent course from someone and *be on the level with them.

What's stinging you, the remark about Avicii? This is real, there is someone without much experience or knowledge, with guesswork & what tends to be a clunky result; to reconcile that with a cogent 'theory' or known principles is problematic. The person that's going in there with you to try and sort it out is going to give you what GenJoeBass did there. Good luck with that! I won't bother again.

Thank you once again for all of the replies!

@JJF wow thank you so much for all that info, i have read it, but now i am going to study it, amazing reply, thank you!

@Trickyloops - Yeah i just ordered it, thanks mate!

@Nanakai - Yeah i've come to understand that now, thank you!

@jancivil - Having read your reply, i apologise then for my hasty response, i think i just got the feeling of negativity (i think it was at the end (i'm not going to care) made me re-read it to get that huh whatever feeling. But i've just read it from a fresh perspective and i think i was in a shitty mood at the time over something. And so i apologise, having read your reply as i say from a different perspective, it is very helpful. I have had a word with my music tutor today who has put me on to another tutor who teaches only theory, i'm thinking an hour a week can't hurt,

Again, thanks for all your responses! Have a great day

Mike

well, thanks for that. that's just me, I don't find it necessary to soft-soap everything and I'm sure my own posts reveal some irritation. The point of 'I won't care' is, I don't think expecting people to sort out those kind of tracks in these pages is a great use of the space or people's time [or more to the point, of yours], just my opinion.

what didn't get addressed was which can't be so conveniently fitted into regular chord names, ie *triads*; I have seen a number of things in this area of EDM etc that land on objects such as this which are going to be hard to explain since they seem to be occurring more as happenstance than say out of coherent voice-leading. (That said, the subsequent 'G# B F#' amounts to the triadic G#m7, albeit the fifth is not expressed. NB: probably the sounds there are pretty thick, ie., a lot of harmonics and the fifth can well be omitted but not missed in terms of the sound.)

there are a number of guesses one can make about those three notes in the quote as 'a chord', but it's all going to whizz right over your head and I don't think it's useful to go there at this stage.