u-he pricing demystified

[Urs]

Guess how often people ask this:

If ACE is only $85 and Diva is $179, does that mean ACE sounds only half as good as Diva…?

And quite naturally, the same happens with Bazille now. Just today I answered an email, and I figured I could make this a sticky for a while

The pricing difference of ACE and Bazille vs. Zebra and Diva is easily explained:

1. Internal Complexity

ACE and Bazille are relatively simple under the hood. Both have 1 algorithm for VCO/Filter/Envelope each. The Ramp, Envelope, Mapping Generator, Cable algorithm and all that are shared among the two.

Zebra and Diva have very complex guts. Zebra has 25 filter algorithms and then dozens of complex modules, many with 5 or more algorithms to choose from. Diva has 3-5 of each for VCO, HPF, VCF/VCA and Envelopes.

So, ACE and Bazille can be cheaper than Diva and Zebra because quite honestly, less development time was required to put them together. But that has nothing to do with how they sound - the decisions were purely conceptual, each time with best quality in mind.

2. Complexity of Usage

While Zebra and Diva have a lot of things going on inside, their individual modules are set up in clear boundaries. Once the UI concept is understood, both provide for an easy workflow. They are attractive for sound designers as well as casual tweakers.

On the other hand, ACE and Bazille are "geeky" products. They're truely modular, and modular isn't for everyone. In those two synths, the fun starts when many modules interact in complex and sometimes unpredictable ways. Therefore they are harder to use than Zeebs and Diva and thus less attractive for many people.

Hence, ACE and Bazille are cheaper than Diva and Zebra because they are a bit more "niche".

You catch the drift: Complexity on the inside creates ease of use, simplicity on the inside requires complex usage… paradox, innit?

3. The Grand Scheme

But there's more.

Zebra and Diva are separate entities.

ACE and Bazille are not. Both are spin-offs of our long-term project to build a truely modular, expandable synthesizer, called "Berlin Modular". This thing has been in the works for a while, but unfortunately CPUs and time wouldn't let us run the final round to finish it. But once it's finished - if ever - we're going to add an absolutely stunning upgrade path from ACE and/or Bazille.

Therefore, ACE and Bazille are cheaper than Diva and Zebra because there's a big plot going on: First we teach you modular synthesis, then we lure you into upgrading to Berlin Modular - which will be priced much like Zebra then.


Conclusion: Price has nothing to do with quality, magazine ratings, number of presets, altruism whatsoever. There may be more than those 3 reasons, but in the end this is what it boils down to.

Cheers,

Urs

[Timfonie]

Very informative post, Urs.

However it contains two words which might cause another flood of questions in the future: 'if ever'

[Urs]

Very informative post, Urs.

However it contains two words which might cause another flood of questions in the future: 'if ever'

Well… it goes to show that we often take a lot of time. Look at Bazille, look at the plug-in we don't speak of, even look at Zebra3.

Some things seem to take infinite time.

[medienhexer]

...and the mighty scientist at intel and AMD have to provide the required powerful CPUs. You never know how quickly these things move. If you compare what we have now to the Pentium3 / 4 and then Pentium M-based developments, we're now in a great place but we probably need to see another leap like that. Maybe ARM is currently trying just that somehow hidden in broad daylight if you look at the gains with every iPhone generation. If they can inject a floating point monster at some point that is

[AusDisciple]

Makes perfect sense to me Urs.

I grew up around analog synths and still have a room full of them (been collecting them since the 80's) so tweaking and experimenting is just as much part of my writing process as is playing a great non modular synth. I've just installed Bazille and LOVE it! I've also been playing around with DIVA and love it too. They both do things I never thought I'd find in software and complement my hardware very nicely.
I love having the sounds and patchability of analog hardware but with POLYPHONY!! That is a HUGE thing for me! I never imagined that being able to play complex chords in realtime on a modular synth would become a reality!

At present, I'm trying to save for a new recording interface (RME Fireface UFX) so I'm trying really hard not to spend money on anything until I get it. But..... Bazille and DIVA are such awesome tools I think I'm going to have to dip into the funds before I get the RME!!!!

[thetechnobear]

whats the difference between Ace/Bazille, does Ace have a future or does Bazille supersede it?
the demo is really nice and some really nice presets, and initially I was tempted to have in addition to Bazille, but on reflection it doesn't seem (from the limited time I had with the demo) to have quite enough differences to cover different ground.
(i.e. for existing users its been great, but for new owners?)

[aMUSEd]

whats the difference between Ace/Bazille, does Ace have a future or does Bazille supersede it?
the demo is really nice and some really nice presets, and initially I was tempted to have in addition to Bazille, but on reflection it doesn't seem (from the limited time I had with the demo) to have quite enough differences to cover different ground.
(i.e. for existing users its been great, but for new owners?)

ACE is a modular VA, Bazille is a modular FM/phase modulation synth. So they complement each other and both are steps towards the Berlin Modular (at some point in the future).

[thetechnobear]

so are you saying the oscillators and filters are different in 'character'
since functionally they are the very similar (ok bazille doesnt have pwm but this can be generated)
i seem to remember reading the filters in bazille are analog models, but oscillators are digital... are the oscillators analog models in ACE?
if so, I guess its similar to diva vs zebra?

[EvilDragon]

Not just different in character, they are different in principle as well.

Filters in Bazille are not modelled on any known analog filter - they are zero feedback delay, but with a custom topology by Urs & co.

[stardustmedia]

Although I already supposed what you wrote, great answer.

Who ever worked with the different U-He plugs will automatically understand the difference. And for those who still haven't any U-He product (WTF is wrong with you ), just study the manuals and YOU WILL understand the difference.

Still unsure... get the demo mate.

Still complaining... buy a real analog Moog or Buchla modular and don't come back here


...ok, that was a little harsh. I can assure anybody, your money invested into U-He won't be a waste. I use them in every project!

[pdxindy]

Still complaining... buy a real analog Moog or Buchla modular and don't come back here

Heh... they will buy the Buchla, use it for a few months and decide that Bazille is the shit!

[suthnear]

@pdxindy - bazille has caused me to have a good long look at my modular. It does a lot of the sounds I use the modular for but it does them a lot more easily and often sounds better, too.

[nschmidt-dd]

..., look at the plug-in we don't speak of, ...

Which one ???????

[medienhexer]

..., look at the plug-in we don't speak of, ...

Which one ???????

That would probably be UHBIK-X. Would love to have it at some point. But there are more good reasons for owning and keeping UHBIK.

[Sendy]

Guess how often people ask this:

If ACE is only $85 and Diva is $179, does that mean ACE sounds only half as good as Diva…?

That's the silliest question I've heard this week. Admittedly, we're only in Monday, so the week is young, but I have a feeling that assertion will hold

... just so long as I stay away from Youtube Comments.