Consecutive Octaves & Fifths: When and When Not To Use Them?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 126 posts since 14 Jun, 2012 from South of Mars
I read a book on music theory that said in tradition harmony consecutive octaves and fifths should be avoided like the plague. However, I've come across another book on harmony that uses a lot of consecutives in its examples. So i can conclude from this that the 2 books on harmony contradict each other. My question is then when & when not is consecutives allowed?
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- KVRer
- 6 posts since 12 Mar, 2007
Hi there,
foremostly it depends on Epoch and styles. While, for instance, in chants before 1200 parallel quints were common due to the fact that there simply was no polyphony other than parallel intervals, from midst 13th century to the time Mozart and even Beethoven, you will rarely parallel quints or octaves.
But it is not only this, there is a ton of a lot of more things composers did not do such as "jumping" into dissonances, false and bad resolving of dissonances, incorrect usage of melodical aspects such as clausulas and cadencas, you name it.
Hope that helps a little,
G.
foremostly it depends on Epoch and styles. While, for instance, in chants before 1200 parallel quints were common due to the fact that there simply was no polyphony other than parallel intervals, from midst 13th century to the time Mozart and even Beethoven, you will rarely parallel quints or octaves.
But it is not only this, there is a ton of a lot of more things composers did not do such as "jumping" into dissonances, false and bad resolving of dissonances, incorrect usage of melodical aspects such as clausulas and cadencas, you name it.
Hope that helps a little,
G.
--------
Before you say what you think - think!
Before you say what you think - think!
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- KVRian
- 513 posts since 26 Nov, 2009
Quartal and quintal harmony parts are hard to sing, because you will have dissonant intervals. If you are after rock, modern jazz/funk or ethnic sound, use them freely.
Check this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartal_an ... rmony#Jazz
Check this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartal_an ... rmony#Jazz
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
The reasoning behind proscribing parallel fifths was style-bound and an historical development. Octaves in parallel also has to do with 4-part writing and part of the reasoning has to do with flexibility, and avoiding a sort of clunky result in terms of that aesthetic.
Once upon a time, fourths and fifths were the preferred vertical concurrence because other things were deemed less consonant. This was purely vocal music. I think if one is having a hard time singing a fourth or fifth 'in harmony' one has a really basic problem harmonizing. That's a bizarre statement to see, frankly.
It doesn't make any sense to say you're going to wind up with dissonance just through singing a fourth or fifth over another note. Those are not in themselves considered dissonances. Do you really mean to indicate that continuing vertically will result in certain 'dissonances'? But let's look at fifths: C G D A E. Not so much. Kind of an open sound, though a long time ago that ninth particularly was something maybe to 'resolve'. Except we find that quality of 'dissonance' left alone in JS Bach often enough. Extend some more and we wind up with all 12, of course. But "dissonance", like anything, is contextual.
To launch into 'chords of the fourth' or quartal chords is another thing than ''consecutive fifths". Parallel fifths requires working horizontally for its meaning. Stacking fourths or constructing by fifths is vertical.
Anyway here's possibly the earliest planing of quartal structures, ~1892:
sounds like:
Once upon a time, fourths and fifths were the preferred vertical concurrence because other things were deemed less consonant. This was purely vocal music. I think if one is having a hard time singing a fourth or fifth 'in harmony' one has a really basic problem harmonizing. That's a bizarre statement to see, frankly.
It doesn't make any sense to say you're going to wind up with dissonance just through singing a fourth or fifth over another note. Those are not in themselves considered dissonances. Do you really mean to indicate that continuing vertically will result in certain 'dissonances'? But let's look at fifths: C G D A E. Not so much. Kind of an open sound, though a long time ago that ninth particularly was something maybe to 'resolve'. Except we find that quality of 'dissonance' left alone in JS Bach often enough. Extend some more and we wind up with all 12, of course. But "dissonance", like anything, is contextual.
To launch into 'chords of the fourth' or quartal chords is another thing than ''consecutive fifths". Parallel fifths requires working horizontally for its meaning. Stacking fourths or constructing by fifths is vertical.
Anyway here's possibly the earliest planing of quartal structures, ~1892:
sounds like:
Last edited by jancivil on Sat May 02, 2015 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRist
- 54 posts since 30 Dec, 2007 from Frankfurt/Germany
today (more or less) it's a question of style.
if you want to do any kind of classical music and you want do do this convincingly you should avoid parallel fifth and octaves like any other strange element (like syncopes, synthesizers, drums, soul vocals or table dancers in the concert hall). inside that classical style those elements are somewhere between silly, non elegant or disgraceful.
in a rock band context the exact opposite can be silly, non elegant or disgraceful.
if you want to do any kind of classical music and you want do do this convincingly you should avoid parallel fifth and octaves like any other strange element (like syncopes, synthesizers, drums, soul vocals or table dancers in the concert hall). inside that classical style those elements are somewhere between silly, non elegant or disgraceful.
in a rock band context the exact opposite can be silly, non elegant or disgraceful.
Saxplayer, LogicUser, loves and makes Jazz/Chill/Latin/Filmmusic, House...
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- KVRist
- 441 posts since 30 Apr, 2007
I just hope people don't get the impression that the rules of counterpoint discouraged composers from doubling a melody or bass line at the octave to make a bigger impact. That is a technique I see from Scarlatti, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, all the way through to contemporary music.
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
The general "model" for writing parts in classical music is the traditional 4-part choir thing (including the bass part). And in that particular style you should try to avoid parallel fifths or octaves because they sound weak and don't really fit with that style, which generally encourages contrary motion rather than parallel motion (oblique motion is also good - where one voice stays the same and the other moves). This kind of writing for singers is also used for 4 parts of bowed strings (violins 1, violins 2, violas, cellos) or other 4 part instrument groups for some reason (probably because it sounds good!) and traditional counterpoint exercises are designed to drill it into learning musicians.
- If you're writing a 4-part jazz parallel harmonized melody (a style that DOESN'T include the bass), different rules apply: octaves are generally avoided altogether (because they reduce the number of real different notes to 3 and you can hear a hole in the harmonic density), but parallel fifths are allowed (and used all over the place). And repeated notes are avoided (except for repeating the whole chord... so it's the reverse of choral writing where repeated notes are generally a good thing).
- Pop often uses what seems like a simplified version of jazz parallel harmony, with less parts (I think 3 parts is common) which makes it less complicated. And then they just wing it. So parallel 5ths are ok in this style as well.
- This doesn't apply to piano parts (not based on choral 4-part arrangement!). Neither does it apply to guitar.
- If a whole part is doubled up or down an octave, that's an octave doubling rather than a separate part so it doesn't count (this makes parallel octaves ok!).
- If you have a whole run of parallel 5ths, that's its own thing rather than 4-part choral writing so the "no parallel 5ths or octaves" rules don't apply.
- If you have a part written in quartal chords (like writing Cm7 as F,Bb,Eb over the bass playing C), this is not 4-part choral arrangement so the "no parallel 5th or octaves" rules don't apply. (actually, in that context, parallel 5ths and octaves tend to reinforce what you're doing rather than detract from it so I guess it's a good thing then)
- If you're writing a 4-part jazz parallel harmonized melody (a style that DOESN'T include the bass), different rules apply: octaves are generally avoided altogether (because they reduce the number of real different notes to 3 and you can hear a hole in the harmonic density), but parallel fifths are allowed (and used all over the place). And repeated notes are avoided (except for repeating the whole chord... so it's the reverse of choral writing where repeated notes are generally a good thing).
- Pop often uses what seems like a simplified version of jazz parallel harmony, with less parts (I think 3 parts is common) which makes it less complicated. And then they just wing it. So parallel 5ths are ok in this style as well.
- This doesn't apply to piano parts (not based on choral 4-part arrangement!). Neither does it apply to guitar.
- If a whole part is doubled up or down an octave, that's an octave doubling rather than a separate part so it doesn't count (this makes parallel octaves ok!).
- If you have a whole run of parallel 5ths, that's its own thing rather than 4-part choral writing so the "no parallel 5ths or octaves" rules don't apply.
- If you have a part written in quartal chords (like writing Cm7 as F,Bb,Eb over the bass playing C), this is not 4-part choral arrangement so the "no parallel 5th or octaves" rules don't apply. (actually, in that context, parallel 5ths and octaves tend to reinforce what you're doing rather than detract from it so I guess it's a good thing then)
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- KVRian
- 570 posts since 21 Feb, 2015
Except though, you guys simply must ask... "So what about Dubstep?" And then where does all this high falutin' theory come in? 
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- KVRist
- 87 posts since 1 Sep, 2011
They are generally avoided because they don't give the impression of strong harmonic movement, similar to chords a 3rd apart because they share two common tones. As to when to avoid it, I'd say writing in the bach style and especially when using it for that class
