How do Vienna Special Edition ensemble patches handle chords / divisi?

[lingyai]

I already know I will get the Special Edition 1 Plus as my first VSL product. While there is a sale on this month, I am thinking about adding the SE2 Plus, as it might be nice to have those extra ensembles. But first I need to know something: if I wish to have an ensemble patch from either library play a chord, is there some auto-divisi function; if not, is there some way to give divisi instructions? Or rather, would each instrument play a full chord? The latter doesn't seem like it would sound too good; surely VSL enables ensemble divisi somehow?

Just guessing, but perhaps the answer depends on which version of the Vienna Instrument I'd be using. As getting both SE1 and SE2 would cost me EUR 880, a lot more than the EUR250-$300 range I'd (admittedly naively) originally budgeted, I would greatly prefer to use the free version. The Pro version is EUR 145.

Any advice much appreciated!

[JorgV]

I use SE1, and all articulations/patches are polyphonic, except for the legato ones. If you want to play chords/divisi with legato, you have to use 2 tracks. Otherwise you can just play them.

Also, if budget is limited, I'd recommend getting the non-plus versions first - they really are enough for most work. They have regular sales, so you can always expand them later. I'm thinking about picking up SE2 (non-plus) to compliment my SE1.

[lingyai]

Jorg, thanks for the advice to cool off on the PLUS stuff.This got me thinking ... in this sale, actually, ignoring any PLUS editions, SE 1 is EUR 428; SE 2 is EUR 452; total = EUR 880;

But as a bundle, (again, without the PLUS), SE 1-4 are EUR 796.

https://vsl.co.at/en/News

Damn....GAS is stirring like a Strangelovian hand with its own will ....

[JorgV]

Actually, I'm quite cured of GAS the last couple of years

For me, there isn't really much value in volume 3&4, so I'll probably just get volume 2. Not ready to pull the trigger yet, I can think about it for a couple of weeks

By the way, audiodeluxe.com has another 15% off, which makes a difference if you're getting more stuff You have to add it to your cart to see the discounted price.

[lingyai]

A

By the way, audiodeluxe.com has another 15% off, which makes a difference if you're getting more stuff You have to add it to your cart to see the discounted price.

Much appreciated, my friend!

[jancivil]

SE doesn't do divisi. Divisi is dividing up eg., 1st violins into desks. It's rather an expert consideration. The primary thing that's addressed is spaciality, the second desk sits in back of the first one. I don't know why you'd be worried about a section playing "the whole chord", per se.* Generally vlns aren't.
The cut-down (SE type) Appassionata Strings I have as the freebie from VE Pro is a 'tutti', all of strings. With overlap as it occurs. It's not apt for serious writing, but as a generic 'strings' that is not all detailed-like, it's pretty great. That kind of quickie 'it's great out of the box' product sorts out what part of the chord goes where for people that have no experience making these decisions. And tend to sort out where the sections go onstage.

I write string parts sometimes to get some detail, some times it's not a lot more than a pad. Detailed string writing is a very learned type of thing. VSL has come out with Dimension Strings to address divisi writing. Expect that type of programming to be more expensive [cf., LASS]. Also, someone really dealing at that level will be using the extended library and the articulations. The basic SE is just very lite.

Interestingly, VSL does not specify 2nd vlns in libraries. I use this old Giga stuff which does. It's a psychological thing in addition to where people are seated onstage. 2nd vlns are less assertive, less bold, accomodating to their role in the orchestration. By the same measure, 2nd desk, those people are relegated to that spot for a reason.
But absent the recording approach of Dimension (which records individuals playing in ensemble, including the psychoacoustics component), one is going to be after creating an illusion of spaciality. Mixing. Power-panning, early vs late reflections...
So writing separate parts, devoting more than one track to the violins itself will be dealing in divisi if you know what you're about. The additional instance of say vlns you'll deal with as though a different group. This is where VI Pro comes in, the humanization and ways of dealing with the samples themselves, to create personality. This player's attack and intonation vs the next one. Or as a group, 2nd desk is more 'laid-back'...

*: by particulars, using a single MIDI track for all of violins can be a 'tell', not convincing and 'not-pro'.
Depends on the writing. Writing a strings pad for a pop record does not carry a whole lot of expectation like a serious mock up or a film score, for instance.

Strings writing in the virtual realm is particularly HARD TO PULL OFF, and it's expensive to pursue. Even relatively simple writing has been the most time-consuming thing for me of all.

[lingyai]

Thanks jancivil.

Just to clarify, I am not looking for something to make divisi decisions for me. I was rather looking for something which would enable me to implement my own divisi decisions live via a keyboard, vs programmatically, track by track. It was not clear to me whether VSL SE ensemble patches could somehow be divided harmonically, as opposed to being “fused”, which I now know that they are .

(By the way, There is a useful midi utility plug-in here

http://www.midi-plugins.de/

called Split Poly. It detects when there is a chord and lets you assign its notes to different midi channels. Free, but definitely worth a donation)

I'm actually far more interested in doing my own divisi. I'm working right now through the examples in Paul Gilreaths's midi orchestration book. Wow. For each section, he starts with a small ensemble (7-9 voices) playing a sustained C major chord progression. A bit boring to listen to, but in itself instructive, because it shows how different the voicing is to, say, a piano voicing. (This is all brand new to me!) Then in successive examples he shows how different voicings and / or articulations of the same progression bring movement, interest and colour.

Yes you are right this is very learned stuff, to put it mildly. But it's magic and worth studying. On a piano is a triad is a triad but for an ensemble it is a voice allocation decision. Potentially each and every chord. Duh, but I never really thought about it this way. Kind of daunting, but cool.

So as I get my feet wet in orchestration – plus the (sigh) expected long slog up the VSL learning curve – I want to start humbly, figuring out how to sequence existing short, small ensemble pieces, voice by voice, so I can take in what every note is doing. I bought the SEs for their solo instruments with this in mind. I regard the ensemble patches as icing.

Small is also fine for me because I don't often care for a big, mighty symphonic sound anyway – in fact “movie music” bugs me at even the movies.

At all events I don't want one of those sounds-great-out-of-the box libraries where everything is fused, for example Spitfire Albion, which divides strings into two groups, High and Low. I would not learn very much at all if I used such a library. Certainly couldn't use it along with the Gilreath examples. I think Albion's for folks who are happier (or forced by time constraints) to paint with broad strokes, which it does very well, to my ears, if you can live with the baked-in verb. (Very nice verb, but baked-in nontheless.)

Of course if I do ever want to try something bigger, I realise that the one-voice-per-track approach will be impractical unless I have a mainframe PC and nothing but time. Hence the ensemble patches.

Since they are fused so to speak i.e. indivisible then I guess the way to use them would be, for example, to assign a C major chord as C-->cello ensemble, E--> viola ensemble and G-->violin ensemble.

[jancivil]

Split Poly detects when there is a chord and lets you assign its notes to different midi channels.

That's probably handy and a time-saver!

I'm actually far more interested in doing my own divisi. I'm working right now through the examples in Paul Gilreaths's midi orchestration book. Wow. For each section, he starts with a small ensemble (7-9 voices) playing a sustained C major chord progression. A bit boring to listen to, but in itself instructive, because it shows how different the voicing is to, say, a piano voicing. (This is all brand new to me!) Then in successive examples he shows how different voicings and / or articulations of the same progression bring movement, interest and colour.

Yes you are right this is very learned stuff, to put it mildly. But it's magic and worth studying. On a piano is a triad is a triad but for an ensemble it is a voice allocation decision. Potentially each and every chord. Duh, but I never really thought about it this way. Kind of daunting, but cool.

Small is also fine for me because I don't often care for a big, mighty symphonic sound anyway – in fact “movie music” bugs me at even the movies.

If I want a huge sound I'd rather get it a cheaper way to be honest. I can write for strings ok, but the cost:benefit for me is not maximal to say the least.
I think it's a good way for you to learn about voicing because you are dealing with it materially as opposed to on paper.

I've only started acquiring sections again. But I have this older giga stuff, most of it VSL, that sounds great with a small footprint. Devs have gone completely insane today. Berlin Strings is 115GB.

At all events I don't want one of those sounds-great-out-of-the box libraries where everything is fused, for example Spitfire Albion, which divides strings into two groups, High and Low. I would not learn very much at all if I used such a library. Certainly couldn't use it along with the Gilreath examples. I think Albion's for folks who are happier (or forced by time constraints) to paint with broad strokes, which it does very well, to my ears, if you can live with the baked-in verb. (Very nice verb, but baked-in nontheless.)

I agree. I use that tutti Appassionata as a pad in kind of what a pop or jazz arranger does; and in more involved things more emphasizing high or low as a broad basis (typically vlns as I like how they've situated it spacially) and then detail over it. It has a sound nothing else really does, very silky and/or shiny depending on how you excite it that sits in the mix nicely as what it is. I have explored Albion through someone's studio and I have zero interest in it. I'm not sold by their lovely big ol' room sound at all, which suits what you noticed about convenience 'out-of-the-box' quickie experience. I'm very interested in room sound and have my own system, anyway. I tried out LASS through the same connection but I didn't like it. I'm accustomed to VSL strings for yrs, from the old giga stuff which I haphazardly collected/inherited. Albion is very lite on articulations and they bloat the bundle with all of this stuff, 'cogs' and variations which is more or less redundant, I'm just not into their workflow. They're targeting people with money to throw away with all of this 'modular' and this thing relies on the other thing to even be meaningful. Spitfire does have some fantastic products in other areas, though.

Of course if I do ever want to try something bigger, I realise that the one-voice-per-track approach will be impractical unless I have a mainframe PC and nothing but time. Hence the ensemble patches.

Since they are fused so to speak i.e. indivisible then I guess the way to use them would be, for example, to assign a C major chord as C-->cello ensemble, E--> viola ensemble and G-->violin ensemble.

One thing I should point out is that ensemble patches are the only real way to approach an ensemble. The acoustics of the situation don't happen, an ensemble created through soloists isn't how ensembles in life work anyway. I meant by one track for a part, one track for a part for a section. I like using a solo concertmaster in the front, center stage to give a like bas-relief to the vlns sonically. That goes a long way towards it being "real music".

Specifically, the third in that thing if the same octave, you may not want violas just yet. It's all contextual of course. For instance I just did some strings.
I chose celli with mutes as a polyphonic patch; again celli con sord but a legato patch, ie., monophonic, only single lines; and vlas C.S. polyphonic. So I had the legato celli up with the vlas for texture. And I had 2nd vlns art. harmonics there also. While the poly. celli sat 8ve above the bassi but the bassi divided so it partially is in unison with celli. 2nd vlns are sitting next to the celli in front of the violas in this case.