Weresax - free alto sax with bonus saxcordion and sxnth

[DSmolken]

EDIT: Weresax is now out, grab it here: http://www.karoryfer.com/karoryfer-samp ... wa/weresax

I should be able to sample a tenor sax sometime over the next few weeks. Assuming we can spend the usual hour or two recording, how to spend that time wisely?

I'm pretty clueless about sax, so I don't know if, for example, a lot of round robins would be needed, or if it's worth doing separate sustained and staccato samples, or any special articulations.

[bigcat1969]

Dunno if it helps but here is what Vienna included as far as articulations.
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Additional_Win ... le_Content

Sustained, with and without vibrato, and staccato might be good sets. I've read that sax is tough to sample so several samples of each note/articulation might be nice so you can toss any that aren't quite right. Three velocity layers seems pretty standard though some go higher.

[pljones]

Given your tastes, get some squeaks and shrieks and nice effects out of it, too...

[bigcat1969]

Or growling?
http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-growl

[DSmolken]

Thank you. Very helpful stuff. The band she's playing in now is one I also played in a few years ago, and they liked odd sounds, so she might want to do some odd sounds, too.

Here's another basic question - how long to make the long notes? I guess sustaining every note as long as humanly possible would quickly get exhausting, but having at least a whole note at slow tempo without looping would be good, right?

[Deep Purple]

They are notoriously hard to sample, and what might work for mic setup for one part of the register might not work so well for another, and might not work at all for blowing very hard or very softly.

My advice would be a multiple mic setup and really check out how good your recording is for a multitude of different styles of playing.

Also, if the player uses different mouthpieces or reed types, check them all out to see what works best.

How hard sustaining the notes depends on how good the player is, and if they use circular breathing or not.

[bigcat1969]

Looking at the Saxes in kontakt factory and session horns, 5 to 6 seconds seems pretty normal.

[Mike Greene]

I’m not sure what your overall goal is, and I’m certainly no expert at sampling sax, but if you only have an hour or two, here’s what I’d do:

I would record three sets of samples: Sustains, staccatos, and legato samples. (Sax is a very fluid instrument where legato is pretty important, so I’d definitely try to do that.)

For the sustains, I would only sample one dynamic. Whatever her sweet spot is at any given range/note, have her do that. Probably just a basic mf. Adding pp and ff will add enormously to the time (literally double or triple), so I wouldn’t even try.

Two seconds would be the minimum to get a passable loop, but 3 or 4 seconds would be better. As you said, though, she might fatigue. (Singers wear out really fast when singing long straight notes.) I’ve never sampled sax before, though, so maybe it’s easy for them.

When you edit these later, you’re going to notice that players naturally want to do a slight diminuendo. (Slowly get softer as they hold the note.) That’s going to cause problems when you try to loop, so watch for that as you record. I’ve said the words “You faded a bit as you held that one” at least a hundred times.

For the legato samples, she’ll also need to hold the landing note. (Don’t try to do a 3-step legato where the legato sample is only the short transition, and you try to crossfade that into the landing note. Those are ridiculously difficult to make sound good.) I would just record one legato sample up and one sample down for each note. (Don’t try to sample every interval. That will take days.) Just pick one interval. Any interval that’s comfortable. Sax (unlike violin or voice or trombone) is simple enough that that should sound fine.

I would sample two round robins for the sustains. I would record five round robins for the staccatos, but only keep the best three. (Sort after she leaves, of course. Not while she’s there.)

Two round robins would be really nice for the legatos, but time may become an issue. I’d do the legatos last, so you can decide then. One thing that may help is that legatos actually record faster than the straight sustain samples, because you don’t have to worry about the attack of the legato samples, since you’re going to chop them off anyway.

Here’s a possibly controversial suggestion, so bear in mind this is just my opinion: Given your time restrictions, I wouldn’t record every chromatic note. You can cut the samples by a third, by just sampling every minor third, instead of every chromatic note.

In other words, just record C2, Eb2, F#2, A2, C3, Eb3, F#3, A3, C4, Eb4, F#4. (I don’t really know the range of a sax, so that’s just an example.) This way, any note can be played by stretching at most a half step, which isn’t bad. (C# is just a half step up from the C sample, D is a half step down from the Eb sample.) Old hardware romplers like the Emu Proteus used this technique and they sounded great.

That will save you a lot of time (like I said, literally cut the time by a third), so if you finish early, then you can attack some other articulations.

[DSmolken]

That's very helpful. My goal is to make a nice free sax for EDM and pop.

3-4 seconds for sustains sounds about right - that's enough for a whole note at 80 bpm without looping. Sustains, staccatos and then legatos if we still have time. Then maybe some squeaks.

I usually sample stuff every minor third anyway, though I've been thinking of starting to do it chromatically. We should have a "standard" range of less than three octaves without getting into special techniques, so doing it chromatically might not be too bad. We'll see.

[bigcat1969]

I'm all excited to see how it comes out. I love free sax.

P.S. Wow that Mike Greene is a sampling machine!

[egbert]

Try to get some samples above the normal range - top note on saxes is F or F# usually. You can play another octave or more on top of that if you have the chops. Those notes are very effective in solos. I would do those last if you have time.

[DSmolken]

Yeah, I'll see how the sax player feels about doing extended-range samples. I don't know how difficult the techniques really are. On double bass I can't really play real parts in thumb position in real life, but if I don't have to leap from note to note and can record while staring at a tuner then toss any notes that screech too much, I can record samples up there (and impress at least one real bassist with how in tune they are). But sax might be different. I don't remember her ever playing any really high notes when she did a few shows with one of my old bands, though she sang the highest vocal harmony parts. Anyway.

I'm making a list of stuff we definitely want, and then some "nice to have" stuff. If we have time I'll let her pick which of the "nice to have" stuff she feels most confident and enthusiastic about.

[DSmolken]

We're scheduled to record on Thursday evening. We'll see how it goes.

I've also talked a violist into recording some samples, with both acoustic and electric violas. That should be easier... just pretend it's a really small double bass.

[egbert]

We're scheduled to record on Thursday evening. We'll see how it goes.

I've also talked a violist into recording some samples, with both acoustic and electric violas. That should be easier... just pretend it's a really small double bass.

There are some good pointers on mic technique for strings on the AKG site.

[bigcat1969]

Awesome! The world needs more, better Violas!
Much excitement!