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Switching from Mac to Windows? Thoughts/ Pro`s & Con`s?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 89 posts since 29 Mar, 2014
Hey all,
i am a mac-user since quite a time, started to make music on OS 9, with Logic-Silver or something like that.
Now i am thinking seriously about switching to Windows, also because i am on a budget.
Here`s my idea/plan:
- Building (for the first time) my own desktop dedicated for music-production (quadcore i7, 500gb ssd, 16-32 RAM). If somebody wants to give me advice about the parts, i will post the parts i thought of would fit.
- Run Windows 10 on it to have the the possibility to use the multitouch feature
- Add a (not too small, an not too big) touchscreen to the setup as a second screen/control surface. For this idea, i googled hours and found this one here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... touch.html
there`s also a youtube video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xRQyGROkd4
and i found this website, wich i would assume, that this "ks10" model is absolutely the same:
https://smithsonmartin.com/products/ks10/
(sorry, the site worked this early evening, and now it seems to be on maintenance)
so, are there any specific experiences with windows10, touchscreen monitors, pc-builds escpecially when using bitwig?
i would be thankful for any thoughts, comments, advices....
cheeers
i am a mac-user since quite a time, started to make music on OS 9, with Logic-Silver or something like that.
Now i am thinking seriously about switching to Windows, also because i am on a budget.
Here`s my idea/plan:
- Building (for the first time) my own desktop dedicated for music-production (quadcore i7, 500gb ssd, 16-32 RAM). If somebody wants to give me advice about the parts, i will post the parts i thought of would fit.
- Run Windows 10 on it to have the the possibility to use the multitouch feature
- Add a (not too small, an not too big) touchscreen to the setup as a second screen/control surface. For this idea, i googled hours and found this one here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... touch.html
there`s also a youtube video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xRQyGROkd4
and i found this website, wich i would assume, that this "ks10" model is absolutely the same:
https://smithsonmartin.com/products/ks10/
(sorry, the site worked this early evening, and now it seems to be on maintenance)
so, are there any specific experiences with windows10, touchscreen monitors, pc-builds escpecially when using bitwig?
i would be thankful for any thoughts, comments, advices....
cheeers
- KVRist
- 339 posts since 13 Nov, 2010
Windows is not a particularly Audio friendly system...
I recently got a Mac, and was blown away by how much better it handles midi and audio on the system level.
To replace the Loop Back midi functionality you lose, You'll need LoopMIDI
http://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/loopmidi.html
Also... No one in their right mind uses windows with microsoft internal audio drivers... Latency city (In my experience even WASAPI didn't work well... Which I was forced to use when I first got Bitwig as ASIO didn't work on my system (Win 8-8.1)... Either my RME or ASIO4All... And the exclusive audio process made my system unstable.)
So you'll be installing ASIO drivers from a third party, Either From your hardware manufacturer, or A free Asio Driver
http://www.asio4all.com/
Or if you're like me you'll install both for flexibility with a laptop
This will get you started... Now you will get the benefits of AWESOME free vst's that aren't available on MAC. I suggest starting at...
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/
Download everything from there... Seriously cool "Analogue" flavour. Crazy that it's free... If there was a paid version for mac, I'd pay.
Hope that helps
Cheers... V.
I recently got a Mac, and was blown away by how much better it handles midi and audio on the system level.
To replace the Loop Back midi functionality you lose, You'll need LoopMIDI
http://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/loopmidi.html
Also... No one in their right mind uses windows with microsoft internal audio drivers... Latency city (In my experience even WASAPI didn't work well... Which I was forced to use when I first got Bitwig as ASIO didn't work on my system (Win 8-8.1)... Either my RME or ASIO4All... And the exclusive audio process made my system unstable.)
So you'll be installing ASIO drivers from a third party, Either From your hardware manufacturer, or A free Asio Driver
http://www.asio4all.com/
Or if you're like me you'll install both for flexibility with a laptop
This will get you started... Now you will get the benefits of AWESOME free vst's that aren't available on MAC. I suggest starting at...
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/
Download everything from there... Seriously cool "Analogue" flavour. Crazy that it's free... If there was a paid version for mac, I'd pay.
Hope that helps
Cheers... V.
Last edited by viceverser on Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 1524 posts since 6 Nov, 2012
Just ignore unreliable noobs experiences who were using cracked windows in 90's.
http://www.tvt.lt/wp-content/gallery/ra ... udio-1.jpg
http://meteorsound.jp/wordpress/wp-cont ... _nuage.jpg
http://www.webmarketing-com.com/wp-cont ... GE-low.jpg
And there has been native low latency driver in Windows. WASAPI. Bitwig has a feature using this driver. Windows is faster than bloated OSX around when 7-8 came out.
Good luck.
p.s.
OSX 2015 241
Win7 2015 120
Win8 2015 120
https://www.cvedetails.com/product/156/ ... ndor_id=49
https://www.cvedetails.com/product/1715 ... ndor_id=26
https://www.cvedetails.com/product/2231 ... ndor_id=26
http://www.tvt.lt/wp-content/gallery/ra ... udio-1.jpg
http://meteorsound.jp/wordpress/wp-cont ... _nuage.jpg
http://www.webmarketing-com.com/wp-cont ... GE-low.jpg
And there has been native low latency driver in Windows. WASAPI. Bitwig has a feature using this driver. Windows is faster than bloated OSX around when 7-8 came out.
Good luck.
p.s.
OSX 2015 241
Win7 2015 120
Win8 2015 120
https://www.cvedetails.com/product/156/ ... ndor_id=49
https://www.cvedetails.com/product/1715 ... ndor_id=26
https://www.cvedetails.com/product/2231 ... ndor_id=26
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- KVRist
- 366 posts since 7 Apr, 2011
I switched from Mac to Windows. The price of a new Mac Pro was just too much. The sound drivers are generally better on Mac, but as long as you have a good sound interface you should be OK. With cheaper single stereo audio channel out interfaces, you will lose system audio when you launch your DAW, so no sound in YuoTube, iTunes, etc, while DAW is open. This may have been fixed in Windows 10, but I can't confirm that. I use Focusrite's higher end interfaces, a 6i6 on my work machine, and a Saffire Pro 10 on my DAW, and both work flawlessly on Windows 7 and Windows 10.
Unfortunately though, after switching to Windows, you will no longer be one of the cool kids.
Unfortunately though, after switching to Windows, you will no longer be one of the cool kids.
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- KVRist
- 269 posts since 5 Sep, 2015
Also recently made the switch as I've posted elsewhere. I got annoyed with Apple's annual updates progressively killing off old software and plugins.
Sonicstate have an interview with Microsoft on the future of audio and MIDI in the OS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHaz3p_H8iM
I'm currently very happily going through old KVR developer plugins for nuggets of gold
Sonicstate have an interview with Microsoft on the future of audio and MIDI in the OS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHaz3p_H8iM
I'm currently very happily going through old KVR developer plugins for nuggets of gold
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TasmanianAngel TasmanianAngel https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=338038
- KVRist
- 161 posts since 17 Sep, 2014
Actually, you can fix that, it just takes some fiddling around your system preferences. I had that problem, so I had to do a lot of experimenting with BWS and W7 audio settings, but managed to fix it.Ciberithm wrote:you will lose system audio when you launch your DAW
Then I upgraded to W7 and it continued to work the same, both being active.
And I only had those issues around 1.1.x versions - which I had a lot of other issues with.
- KVRist
- 459 posts since 28 Mar, 2014 from Los Angeles, CA
I've used both professionally for years, and you're right - you're not going to get around the fact that it's cheaper to put together a PC that is technically more powerful than a Mac for the money. People usually just factor this as the main Mac vs PC cost (or the figurative "Apple tax"), but I can tell you that there are far more costs than just money (if you value your time and just want to get to work).
That said - my main DAW computer is a PC with Windows 7, and as long as you keep it under tight control, it will be fine. There are issues though, and depending on your usage you may run into the snags that (what I believe) a more fragile OS brings to the table. I have hopes for the future (Windows 10 MIDI updates, etc), but MIDI is pretty lacking once you start attaching more than 6-8 devices. The registry doesn't clear out attached devices after they are detached (boggles the mind), so if you bump up against the limit (hard coded around 8-10), you have to use some tools to clear out slots. At least Korg provides a tool like this but it's a shame that a tool needs to be built around this shortcoming. If you don't use a lot of MIDI devices, you'll likely never run into this.
As others said, with modern drivers you won't be missing out on any latency or functionality, and you do have access to third party tools and plugins that are Windows-only.
I do miss the aggregate device functionality in OS X, as well as the native built in MIDI routing/loopback. Windows gets "confused" by configurations and hardware much easier than OS X, but this does happen more often to people who don't know what they're doing. Personally I still think this is an engineering shortcoming, because people shouldn't have to know the technical details if the system was designed better, but that's another philosophical debate.
Because your non-unix based OS will now be WAY more susceptible to viruses, you might also need to worry about the overhead of an always-running virus scanner when running a lot of disk-based activity, recording, etc.
In the end, there's not going to be something that makes you curse not being able to get any production done - just things that crop up once in a while that you'll need to work around (with either OS choice).
That said - my main DAW computer is a PC with Windows 7, and as long as you keep it under tight control, it will be fine. There are issues though, and depending on your usage you may run into the snags that (what I believe) a more fragile OS brings to the table. I have hopes for the future (Windows 10 MIDI updates, etc), but MIDI is pretty lacking once you start attaching more than 6-8 devices. The registry doesn't clear out attached devices after they are detached (boggles the mind), so if you bump up against the limit (hard coded around 8-10), you have to use some tools to clear out slots. At least Korg provides a tool like this but it's a shame that a tool needs to be built around this shortcoming. If you don't use a lot of MIDI devices, you'll likely never run into this.
As others said, with modern drivers you won't be missing out on any latency or functionality, and you do have access to third party tools and plugins that are Windows-only.
I do miss the aggregate device functionality in OS X, as well as the native built in MIDI routing/loopback. Windows gets "confused" by configurations and hardware much easier than OS X, but this does happen more often to people who don't know what they're doing. Personally I still think this is an engineering shortcoming, because people shouldn't have to know the technical details if the system was designed better, but that's another philosophical debate.
Because your non-unix based OS will now be WAY more susceptible to viruses, you might also need to worry about the overhead of an always-running virus scanner when running a lot of disk-based activity, recording, etc.
In the end, there's not going to be something that makes you curse not being able to get any production done - just things that crop up once in a while that you'll need to work around (with either OS choice).
- KVRAF
- 4633 posts since 21 Jan, 2008 from oO
maybe consider a hackintosh? Or at least choose your parts so you could try it.
Cheaper than a mac and upgradable. Also dual boot is possible.
With the right parts it is very easy to build one..
It's working very good, check over here: http://www.tonymacx86.com/building-cust ... -2015.html
Cheaper than a mac and upgradable. Also dual boot is possible.
With the right parts it is very easy to build one..
It's working very good, check over here: http://www.tonymacx86.com/building-cust ... -2015.html
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 89 posts since 29 Mar, 2014
wow..first of.thank you very much for all those inputs and information..there`s for sure a lot i have to dive into, to really understand all of this..
some things, i already can answer, or share my thoughts:
so thanks again, i will dig deeper, for that maybe it`s too early to know, how windows 10 will handle some of those subjects?
some things, i already can answer, or share my thoughts:
well i actually completely don`t care...i`m no kid anymore since quite a while..actually becoming a father in a few weeks...so that should be way more cooler than having a macCiberithm wrote:Unfortunately though, after switching to Windows, you will no longer be one of the cool kids.
yes....i considered this, and also checked the tonymac website a lot of times..still i am a bit afraid of hackintosh`s, i read from a lot people, that it just works great, from others, that the whole installation-process is also a lot of try-and error? not sure, if i am technically able to get through all of this..but a have chosen my parts with that in mind and used the suggested hardware from tonymac. so i will keep this in mind.Suloo wrote:maybe consider a hackintosh? Or at least choose your parts so you could try it.
Cheaper than a mac and upgradable. Also dual boot is possible.
With the right parts it is very easy to build one..
since a while, i am using an spl-crimson audiointerface, and i really love it for what i want to get done in recording...will check at spl, what they think about windows10, but i would say, that spl is a pretty good company, when it comes ti quality?Ciberithm wrote:The sound drivers are generally better on Mac, but as long as you have a good sound interface you should be OK.
wow..that sounds pretty annoying..i am not using that much midi-controllers, at moment there are 3 controlles attached..but do i get it right, if i replace one of this devices, i have to check, how i get rid of the older one on my system?shadiradio wrote:I have hopes for the future (Windows 10 MIDI updates, etc), but MIDI is pretty lacking once you start attaching more than 6-8 devices. The registry doesn't clear out attached devices after they are detached (boggles the mind), so if you bump up against the limit (hard coded around 8-10), you have to use some tools to clear out slots.
well...this is completely "new land" for me, i have (not yet) no idea, how this all works..will have to collect some more understandingviceverser wrote:To replace the Loop Back midi functionality you lose, You'll need LoopMIDI
so thanks again, i will dig deeper, for that maybe it`s too early to know, how windows 10 will handle some of those subjects?
- KVRAF
- 4633 posts since 21 Jan, 2008 from oO
its fairly easy to install actualy, you just prepare a bootable usb drive (16GB) and follow those install instruction. Sure there is a little more to it than just installing windows, but it's not rocket science and if single problems occure, there is usually already a way to fix it in that forum. But by doing a dual boot with two ssds (one Win , one osx) you can have your working win system and try osx if you like.
I'm also going for a second ssd now for dual boot and gaming on win. But i couldn't really stand going back fully into win regarding all this registry issues and general workflow.
I'm also going for a second ssd now for dual boot and gaming on win. But i couldn't really stand going back fully into win regarding all this registry issues and general workflow.
- KVRAF
- 6304 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin
I'll add my personal 2 cent to this:
Precaution: I'm using PCs for almost 25 years, went from DOS and Windows 3.1 all the way to now Windows 8.1 and 10 (the latter I do not use for production yet).
Yes, you need to know some things about the system, but I never encountered a situation that I couldn't solve one way or another.
I bought a Mac at one point (2008, when Bootcamp came out), but after some very disappointing experiences I installed Windows on it - ran actually faster...
So I'd say 50% of it is personal taste, the rest is getting comfortable with finding the right utilities to solve things that don't work or aren't to your liking. And there always is a tool somewhere when it comes to Windows...
- LoopMidi was already mentioned.
- For me VB Audios ASIO Bridge is a key solution: http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/index.htm (never mind the cheesy website it works great) It allows you to use every multichannel ASIO interface as Windows Surround Device.
- Resonic is my favourite Audio/Sample Browser - Windows only so far: http://resonic.at/ The player is free, the Pro version will be awesome.
- Avira Antivirus Pro is a good and lightweight Virus scanner. Only install and activate what you really need and you will hardly notice any impact. https://www.avira.com/en/avira-antivirus-pro
- True for every system: Don't go overboard with security but use your brain and be cautious.
- If you want a really powerful Finder/Explorer substitute, check out XYplorer: http://www.xyplorer.com/ I recommend the lifetime license if you should happen to like it -> it's updated very regularly.
IMO, the money you save when building your own machine you can invest into things that matter for your personally - and maybe more than being cool (?). I find Apple computers impractical these days for real work actually.
And yes, this is of course coloured by my own experiences (I mainly work in 3D graphics).
Good luck!
Cheers,
Tom
Precaution: I'm using PCs for almost 25 years, went from DOS and Windows 3.1 all the way to now Windows 8.1 and 10 (the latter I do not use for production yet).
Yes, you need to know some things about the system, but I never encountered a situation that I couldn't solve one way or another.
I bought a Mac at one point (2008, when Bootcamp came out), but after some very disappointing experiences I installed Windows on it - ran actually faster...
So I'd say 50% of it is personal taste, the rest is getting comfortable with finding the right utilities to solve things that don't work or aren't to your liking. And there always is a tool somewhere when it comes to Windows...
- LoopMidi was already mentioned.
- For me VB Audios ASIO Bridge is a key solution: http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/index.htm (never mind the cheesy website it works great) It allows you to use every multichannel ASIO interface as Windows Surround Device.
- Resonic is my favourite Audio/Sample Browser - Windows only so far: http://resonic.at/ The player is free, the Pro version will be awesome.
- Avira Antivirus Pro is a good and lightweight Virus scanner. Only install and activate what you really need and you will hardly notice any impact. https://www.avira.com/en/avira-antivirus-pro
- True for every system: Don't go overboard with security but use your brain and be cautious.
- If you want a really powerful Finder/Explorer substitute, check out XYplorer: http://www.xyplorer.com/ I recommend the lifetime license if you should happen to like it -> it's updated very regularly.
IMO, the money you save when building your own machine you can invest into things that matter for your personally - and maybe more than being cool (?). I find Apple computers impractical these days for real work actually.
And yes, this is of course coloured by my own experiences (I mainly work in 3D graphics).
Good luck!
Cheers,
Tom
"Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there." - Rumi
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 89 posts since 29 Mar, 2014
good to know...you`re right, this also would give me the possibility to experiment with both platforms..it for sure would be a step for me with some courage neededSuloo wrote:its fairly easy to install actualy, you just prepare a bootable usb drive (16GB) and follow those install instruction. Sure there is a little more to it than just installing windows, but it's not rocket science and if single problems occure, there is usually already a way to fix it in that forum. But by doing a dual boot with two ssds (one Win , one osx) you can have your working win system and try osx if you like.
I'm also going for a second ssd now for dual boot and gaming on win. But i couldn't really stand going back fully into win regarding all this registry issues and general workflow.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 89 posts since 29 Mar, 2014
thanks for sharing your experience, i really appreciate it!ThomasHelzle wrote: IMO, the money you save when building your own machine you can invest into things that matter for your personally - and maybe more than being cool (?). I find Apple computers impractical these days for real work actually.
And yes, this is of course coloured by my own experiences (I mainly work in 3D graphics).
Good luck!
Cheers,
Tom
- KVRian
- 696 posts since 27 Mar, 2014
I custom built a win 7 64bit ivy bridge OC'd to 4.7ghz with 16 gigs of RAM with RME drivers and it = awesome. Been running for two+ years now with no issues at all. My mac book pro is now not running to well due to latest OS updates. I would never run a DAW on a mac personally but that is just because i've always ran and built windows machines since 1998. Djing I use the mac book and its solid in that regard.
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- Banned
- 177 posts since 3 Oct, 2015
i think music is not a question of mac linux woindows or whatever u ask yourself...
->
if i could, i'll buy an imac at home and a mac book pro to move... but it's so expensive !
(but today the best solution with linux.)
(and after me, if u can buy a mac, so u can buy all u need !!!!)
->
this is not my case.
what i do on my pc, i would liked to do it on linux but i dunno how to setup VST's on linux. (and i play PC games also..)
but if u can afford a mac, don't hesitate ! OS it's as rock solid as olds Commodore AMIGA's in 80's !!!
and it's supported by devs.
->
if i could, i'll buy an imac at home and a mac book pro to move... but it's so expensive !
(but today the best solution with linux.)
(and after me, if u can buy a mac, so u can buy all u need !!!!)
->
this is not my case.
what i do on my pc, i would liked to do it on linux but i dunno how to setup VST's on linux. (and i play PC games also..)
but if u can afford a mac, don't hesitate ! OS it's as rock solid as olds Commodore AMIGA's in 80's !!!
and it's supported by devs.