What nice sounding synth plugins have MIDI in/out via CC/Sysex or host automation?
I mean complete (= all parameters) bidirectional MIDI communication?.
For hardware synths it seems standard for decades. But i can't find any plugins that can do it too.
Arturia
NI
Synapse
u-he
Waldorf
= nope (either no full control or missing MIDI out)
Maybe Xils? I wrote them but got no answer yet.
Synth Plugins with MIDI In (and Out!) for all parameters
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- KVRian
- 925 posts since 14 Dec, 2014
Parameters (in a software) and MIDI CC are completely different things.
MIDI CCs are limited, parameters are not. So "complete (= all parameters)" not possible with many plugins (synth or not).
MIDI CCs are limited, parameters are not. So "complete (= all parameters)" not possible with many plugins (synth or not).
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- KVRAF
- 10260 posts since 19 Feb, 2004 from Paris
Xils have full host automation + custom Midi Cc automation saved as a map to fully adapt it to your hardware controllers.mi-os wrote:What nice sounding synth plugins have MIDI in/out via CC/Sysex or host automation?
I mean complete (= all parameters) bidirectional MIDI communication?
For hardware synths it seems standard for decades. But i can't find any plugins that can do it too.
Arturia
NI
Synapse
u-he
Waldorf
= nope (either no full control or missing MIDI out)
Maybe Xils? I wrote them but got no answer yet.
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Synth Presets
77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there
77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there
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- KVRAF
- 6160 posts since 29 Mar, 2003 from Location: Location
I`m confused. What functionality would you like to have to do what?
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here. 
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- u-he
- 28063 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
The OP wants feedback on MIDI Learned parameters, say, when presets are changed. He needs that for his hardware controller designs.
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- KVRAF
- 6160 posts since 29 Mar, 2003 from Location: Location
I see. VST(i) seem to send all states of parameters even after a preset change. When I use the VST(i) stacker host 'Chainer", and I open the standard GUI for that slot showing a fader for control and feedback of each parameter, doesn't that in itself show there is input as well as output from any plugin?Urs wrote:The OP wants feedback on MIDI Learned parameters, say, when presets are changed. He needs that for his hardware controller designs.
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 442 posts since 13 Apr, 2017
Thank you, sounds good.Lotuzia wrote: Xils have full host automation + custom Midi Cc automation saved as a map to fully adapt it to your hardware controllers.
Do you know how more than 128 CC's are managed? With u-he plugins you can have 16 MIDI channels * 128 CC's = 2048 parameters.
Does the MIDI CC implementation supports MIDI out? (for example on preset changes) Or is this only via host automation available?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 442 posts since 13 Apr, 2017
Maybe what you see is host automated VST parameters? To me they seem bidirectional by default.annode wrote:I see. VST(i) seem to send all states of parameters even after a preset change. When I use the VST(i) stacker host 'Chainer", and I open the standard GUI for that slot showing a fader for control and feedback of each parameter, doesn't that in itself show there is input as well as output from any plugin?Urs wrote:The OP wants feedback on MIDI Learned parameters, say, when presets are changed. He needs that for his hardware controller designs.
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- KVRAF
- 6160 posts since 29 Mar, 2003 from Location: Location
Maybe you should find out for yourself?Maybe what you see is host automated VST parameters?
https://www.xlutop.com/html/chainer.html
It's popup parameter controller follows all parameter movement and shows numbers. Can it be interfaced?The parameters of Chainer and also parameters of the loaded VST plugins can be controlled through MIDI CC messages,[learning] or VST automation.
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Xhip 8 does this, although you'd need to use your host to convert automation outputs to MIDI as Xhip does not output MIDI data.
It would mostly be useless. I can't think of any case where reading the value of a parameter would be useful.
MIDI doesn't have the required functionality to support this sort of thing without sysex and sysex isn't well supported outside of hardware which is the main reason you almost never see it in software.
I believe a VST plug-in would need to handle MIDI I/O directly without using the host and it would conflict with the host because MIDI devices can't be used by multiple processes in that way; there is no "MIDI mixing".
The proper way to handle it in software would be to use the existing interfaces. For example in VST you have set-parameter and get-parameter as well as a plug-in to host notification "automate-parameter" which is essentially "parameter-changed".
Therefore any plug-in which implements every preset parameter as an automatable parameter in VST does exactly what you want. Again, Xhip does this.
It would mostly be useless. I can't think of any case where reading the value of a parameter would be useful.
MIDI doesn't have the required functionality to support this sort of thing without sysex and sysex isn't well supported outside of hardware which is the main reason you almost never see it in software.
I believe a VST plug-in would need to handle MIDI I/O directly without using the host and it would conflict with the host because MIDI devices can't be used by multiple processes in that way; there is no "MIDI mixing".
The proper way to handle it in software would be to use the existing interfaces. For example in VST you have set-parameter and get-parameter as well as a plug-in to host notification "automate-parameter" which is essentially "parameter-changed".
Therefore any plug-in which implements every preset parameter as an automatable parameter in VST does exactly what you want. Again, Xhip does this.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 442 posts since 13 Apr, 2017
The main objective for now is getting presets to the controller.
Secondary i see nothing wrong with continuous bidirectional communication, though it's not absolutely neccessary. Why would you not want to see parameter changes on your controller if you change something via the plugin GUI or have some host automation for certain parameters? The latter is insofar intresting as if a parameter is already host automated, these parameters would be somehow locked since you can't have two values per param. (hasty thought: have a sort of scaling/shifting then instead / or some priority modes could be helpful for such situations)
Secondary i see nothing wrong with continuous bidirectional communication, though it's not absolutely neccessary. Why would you not want to see parameter changes on your controller if you change something via the plugin GUI or have some host automation for certain parameters? The latter is insofar intresting as if a parameter is already host automated, these parameters would be somehow locked since you can't have two values per param. (hasty thought: have a sort of scaling/shifting then instead / or some priority modes could be helpful for such situations)
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
It's a question of bandwidth and interference.
Most of the time you wouldn't want to show parameter changes in a VST. For example the host generally doesn't print the value of every automated parameter all the time because it would be a huge waste.
Actually communicating with a controller is a hardware issue. You'd likely be best to use an OSC-based controller with a USB or ethernet interface. In which case you can simply send messages like: "paramchange: #34 Filter.Cutoff = 52.6 Hz" or just use the standard method if it suits your needs.
Wrapping a VST plug-in in a host that could handle such communication via MIDI would be possible but it wouldn't obey any standards for communication. So you'd have a "MIDI v666" that only worked with your custom hardware and nothing else.
It is possible to transmit OSC-like messages using sysex but you'll very quickly run out of bandwidth and the latency may be unacceptable.
Most of the time you wouldn't want to show parameter changes in a VST. For example the host generally doesn't print the value of every automated parameter all the time because it would be a huge waste.
Actually communicating with a controller is a hardware issue. You'd likely be best to use an OSC-based controller with a USB or ethernet interface. In which case you can simply send messages like: "paramchange: #34 Filter.Cutoff = 52.6 Hz" or just use the standard method if it suits your needs.
Wrapping a VST plug-in in a host that could handle such communication via MIDI would be possible but it wouldn't obey any standards for communication. So you'd have a "MIDI v666" that only worked with your custom hardware and nothing else.
It is possible to transmit OSC-like messages using sysex but you'll very quickly run out of bandwidth and the latency may be unacceptable.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 442 posts since 13 Apr, 2017
Regarding dumping presets to the controller, how do VST host preset systems work? Since a preset includes all parameters maybe there is a chance to get the parameters via that interface? Though i'd need a custom host i suppose, which would be not really ideal.
